The "Non-elect"

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by qwerty:
The problem with Calvinist theology is like many others:

State an assumption, and treat it like a fact.

Instead of saying that we really don't understand how God is working all of this out, Calvinists declare that they have it all figured out. There won't be any conclusion to this discussion before heaven.

But, in my opinion, Calvinists will be very surprised when they really understand God's plan.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suspect we will all be surprised how God has "worked it all out". I know of no Calvinist who has it all figured out. Nevertheless, we are admonished to search and understand the Scriptures in what has been clearly presented to us. And Calvinism is biblical theology, despite your unwillingness to understand it, handle the texts, and your use of ad hominem.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chris Temple:


And Calvinism is biblical theology, despite your unwillingness to understand it, handle the texts, and your use of ad hominem.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chris and James2

Just want to tell you guys that I appreciate your willingness to try to understand, and pass it on to others in a good spirit. (This is not an attack on the others) A year ago I can see myself being one who would have been thinking you strange to hold the beliefs that you so strongly do. Within my IFB circles (I speak for myself) God’s sovereignty, election, man’s total depravity, etc is not outwardly denied but is often set aside in order to focus on God’s love, “just ask Jesus in your heart,” etc. Months ago I started teaching the book of Roman’s to some new Christians. We are up to chapter 12 now and guess who was taught the most? Me. God’s choosing of some sinners to mercy used to be something I thought of a bit on the negative side because I never saw it as Paul laid it out in Roman. After really starting to see the awesomeness of God’s mercy, it makes me want to shout and praise God as Paul did at the end of chapter 11. Knowing where I was a year ago I can understand why you guys are sometimes misunderstood. I appreciate your posts!

 

Packerbacker:

Thanks!

 

JAMES2 said
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Obviously, if God desires "all" to be saved and "all" means without exception, then you have universalism <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. If God "willed" all to be saved you would have universalism. God "desiring" all to be saved does not entail universalism.

 

If Calvinism is true then there is no need:

to witness
to pray
to preach
to live holy
to get saved
to go to church

because according to Calvinism our eternal destiny has already been decided before we were even born so there is nothing you can do about it anyhow. Calvinism is a damnable heresy hatched out of hell.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
If Calvinism is true then there is no need:

to witness
to pray
to preach
to live holy
to get saved
to go to church

because according to Calvinism our eternal destiny has already been decided before we were even born so there is nothing you can do about it anyhow. Calvinism is a damnable heresy hatched out of hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The reason all those things are necessary is because of Calvinism. God has ordained that his purpose be accomplished through them.

Consider 2 Tim 2:10:
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Clearly, Paul believed that his preaching, praying, witnessing to the point of being put in jail and persecuted was necessary for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation ... .

In other words, those things you list are necessary so that the elect might be saved. Where God ordains the ends, he also ordains the means to the ends. It is vital that we understand this.

I don't know of any Calvinist on this board (or any one not on this board) who would agree to anything you have just said. Far from being a doctrine from the pits of hell, biblical soteriology is what gives me hope as a preacher. If I didn't believe Christ had some sheep out there that had not been brought in yet, I wouldn't preach. If I didn't believe the Holy Spirit was effectually calling people to salvation, I wouldn't preach because it would be a hopeless task.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pioneer:
If Calvinism is true then there is no need:

to witness
to pray
to preach
to live holy
to get saved
to go to church

because according to Calvinism our eternal destiny has already been decided before we were even born so there is nothing you can do about it anyhow. Calvinism is a damnable heresy hatched out of hell.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well Michael, so much for the reasonable and scholarly tone of this thread!

 

PackerBacker:
I remember the first time I picked up a book by Arthur Pink. A friend of one of my kids gave it to me along with a book by Martin Luther called "The Bondage of the Will." Well, what does a high school kid know. I'll read it and humor him. I got to about page 5 in Pink's book and threw it across the room. I thought is this guy nuts. What kind of God is this blah, blah, blah. Well, a year or two later, the book coming apart, bend, beat up, looking like it had been through the Second World War,I sat down and read it again. Could not put it down. Praise God, that for the first time in my life I understood the scripture that says "know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

I have read every book on the absolute Sovereignity of God that I can get my hands on. All (well, alot of) the Reformed writers, Calvin, Luther, Hodges, Pink, John Murray, James White, Piper, Buchanan, etc.

I am sorry if I come across so strongly about the subject, but IT IS THE TRUTH, THE WHOLE TRUTH, AND NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH. The bible talks about the Sovereignity of God on just about every page. How can anyone (born again, because these things are spiritually discerned 1 cor. 2:14) read the bible and not come away with the conviction that this is the truth?

I have been set free. The more I understand about God's grace, the more I realize I need to depend on God.

I've read the arguments on both sides and am absolutely CERTAIN about the (for a lack of a better term 5-point Calvin) truth of the Sovereign Election of some( God's mercy) and the nonelection of others (God's justice) of others.

See, PackerBacker, just try and teach Romans and not agree with the Reformed position. It is impossible, in my opinion.

Now, do me a favor and read and study John 10:1-33.

Another scripture that really opened my eyes was Acts 13:48. Notice the order there. All the were ORDAINED to eternal life believed. Not the other way around of course. And that fits in with the few thousand other scriptures that teach the same thing.

Thanks for the kind words. I am the first to admit, I get very intense and passionate about the subject. If I could be a 15-point Calvinists I would be. I just wish the Calvin tag hadn't been put on the doctrine. I love Calvin's writings, but I would prefer to refer to the doctrine without putting a tag on it. I mean Luther taught the subject as strongly as Calvin and before he did, and Paul taught it before that. (I was only going to write a sentence or two. Sorry).

I am thrilled to see that you are seeing the truth of the subject. And of course read Eph. Chapter 1 and 2 also.

One really good book that I would recommend for anyone wanting their questions answered and the opposings scriptures dealt with would be "The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination" by Loraine Boettner. It is a excellent treatment of the subject. And of course, for anyone interested, a reading of Martin Luther's "The Bondage of the Will," is a must.
Everyone have a great Thanksgiving Day. Even those that don't agree with me. Read the books and author's suggested and you soon will, God willing.
James2

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Consider 2 Tim 2:10:
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.

Clearly, Paul believed that his preaching, praying, witnessing to the point of being put in jail and persecuted was necessary for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation ... .

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Good point, but then how can I obtain something that I already have?

 

Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not
that he should return from his ways, and live?

Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD:
wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward,...... "not "WILLING" that any should perish, but that all should come
to repentance."

Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that "ALL MEN" through
him might believe.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "ALL MEN" unto me



Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon "ALL MEN" to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon "ALL MEN" unto
justification of life.


If by the offense of "one man" ALL were made sinners, then by the righteousness of one
"ALL" can be made free.

Predestination teaches that "ALL MEN" can't be saved because it's God's "WILL" that some
should perish, consequently Jesus's "free gift" isn't for "All MEN".


Would you witness to a sinner by telling them it might be impossible for them to be saved if
they aren't among the "Elect"???

Under predestination, you don't know who is/isn't the Elect, so you could very well be lying
telling a sinner they could be saved when they couldn't, is this the way the gospel is
preached???

God in his "foreknowledge" knew who would/wouldn't accept salvation, but this in "NO
WAY" means that God made that decision "FOR THEM".

NO WHERE does the Bible teach that man is "predestined" to "go to Hell".

Adam "originated sin" for the "whole world", but Jesus removed that sin for the "Whole
world", if "ALL MEN" would "Chose" to accept it.

 

One of the questions I'm asked quite frequently is, "Why didn't God give "Judas" and
"Pharaoh" a chance to be saved"??

God harden Pharaoh's heart, and chose Judas to betray Jesus.

Sure sounds like "predestination", doesn't it? Not if understood in the proper context.

Suppose God, in his foreknowledge, knew that regardless of what he did, neither Judas or
Pharaoh would chose to be saved.

Look at what Jesus said about Judas:
Joh 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

God doesn't have to predestinate any to be a "devil", he has plenty of "VOLUNTEERS" from
which to pick for those parts.

 

Michael Wrenn:
I understand that other people have views opposite of mine. I know how easy that is because I have been on the opposite side of where I am now. I praise God for giving me the understanding that He has.
I find the Sovereignity of God taught on about every page of scripture and do not see how I could have missed it all these years.

I have been in a Southern Baptist Church for years, until about two years ago, when I decided that altar calls and so forth seem to have little effect on the person that walks up and says they "accept Jesus as Saviour."
I love the people in the SBC. However, I do think DOCTRINE matters, and like you, I have studied all the church "fathers" and the history of the church from the beginning. What has become known as the 5 points of Calvin predates Calvin by centuries. For one, the whole concept is taught by Paul and Jesus. Luther was stronger on the subject that Calvin was.
I look at it this way:

Either salvation is from God Alone or it is not. If it is from God Alone, which of course I believe, then man can contribute nothing to gain his salvation. Hence the concept of grace alone, faith alone, scripture alone etc.
If man does contribute to his own salvation, just what does he contribute and why. If ALL people are offered salvation on an equal basis, why do some accept and others do not" Do those who accept, have a reason to boast. Look, bubby, we were both offered salvation and I, ALL BY MYSELF, accepted Jesus and you didn't. Wow, look at me and WHAT I DID.

Don't you see how silly that whole concept is? If our salvation depended on what we did, then NNE would be saved. Talk about a limited atonement.

If our salvation depended on our "free choice" then the death of Jesus on the Cross was very limited in effect indeed. We would have the God-dishonoring reality that God cannot do what He set out to do. We would have an disappointed and defeated savior, a ineffective Holy Spirit, and a God who could not do what He said he was going to do. That is impossible!!!!!

How in the world can the plan of a Sovereign God of the universe depend on what a fallen, depraved, finite, lost, God-hating sinner decide to do. You have to defend the position that God has said I will send my SON to DIE and provide an atonement for all your gross, God-hating sins. Of course, it is up to you to make my plan effective. It's your choice. Really, now, if you take that position then it is possible that no one would have "chosen" to be saved and Jesus would have died in vain. It seems absurd to me that God could be defeated by the decisions of fallen creatures.

One writer said the views I hold are from the pits of hell. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. No one every said preaching the pure gospel would be easy. In fact, the closer one gets to the pure gospel, the more hatred and oppostion one receives. Man hates to be told that they HAVE NOTHING to do with their salvation. That's why all the other religions of the world have a system of working for salvation, being on the "spiritual path," acheiving your own salvation. That's human nature. But Chritianity is totally different. Before we are regenerated, born again, we are DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN, and can do no more toward our salvation than a dead man in a casket can jump out of the casket and start dancing. It all of God, thank God.

I don't expect many to agree with me because the gospel has been rejected by the vast majority of mankind and by the vast majority of church goers down through the centuries. It is really difficult for people to understand the terrible results of the fall, their totally helpless condition before the Thrice Holy God, their absolute utter DEPENDENCE on the grace of God for their salvation. It is not that man is sick, or leaning to the right or to the left, or thinking about whether to "accept" salvation or to "reject" salvation. No, it is much more dire than that. Man, before the miracle of grace regenerates him, CANNOT come to God, or WANT to come to God, or CARE ANYTHING about God. In fact, they want to continue along just like they are doing. Being the captain of their ship, being "free", expressing their individuality, doing their own thing. Of course history shows the result of how free man is. He is in such total bondage to sin that he thinks he is totally free and can make a choice on whether to accept or reject the eternal plans of God. I find that absurd.

I thank God every day for His Sovereignity, for His free gift of grace, faith, salvation, justification, and thank Him for being in control, instead of me, a fallen sinner that can do NOTHING to save himself.

James2

 

Joey M, asked

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Good point, but then how can I obtain something that I already have?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Calvinists do not believe the elect obtain salvation before conversion. A misunderstanding by many non Calvinists is that we view elect and saved as synomous. The elect do not obtain salvation until they are born again.

 

S.Baptist quoted these verses to refute Calvinism

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Eze 18:23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not
that he should return from his ways, and live?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD:
wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No argument here. God gets no pleasure in the death of the wicked. There is a general call to repentance in countless scriptures but has nothing to do with Calvinism.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> 2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is
longsuffering to us-ward,...... "not "WILLING" that any should perish, but that all should come
to repentance."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True, but what is the context? To "usward" or "you". He will bring His elect to Salvation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that "ALL MEN" through
him might believe.

Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw "ALL MEN" unto me

Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon "ALL MEN" to
condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon "ALL MEN" unto
justification of life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Luke 2:1 ALL the world is said to be taxed but was that referring to every individual in the world? Of course not! It was referring to the Roman Empire.

John 1:7 is clearly meaning ALL men who believe and not just the Jews as does John 12:32 indicate the universality of the Gospel to all men, people and races.

Romans 5:18 in your teaching if taken literaly would teach Universalism. Once again ALL is referring to the Universality of the Gospel and it not being limited to the Jews.

[ November 23, 2001: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

Pioneer said,

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If Calvinism is true then there is no need:
to witness
to pray
to preach
to live holy
to get saved
to go to church

because according to Calvinism our eternal destiny has already been decided before we were even born so there is nothing you can do about it anyhow. Calvinism is a damnable heresy hatched out of hell.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better check the lineage of your Baptist Church. I think you will find that you are condemning most of Baptist work up until the late 1800's as being hatched in hell since practically all Baptist churches in the USA were hatched from Particular (Calvinist) Baptist theology for 300 years. So in a sense you are claiming that the Baptist heritage (with the notable exception of the General Baptists who faded by the 1700's) was hatched in Hell.

Kinda of a reverse of The Trail of Blood..Hmmm