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Featured The Offer of the Gospel

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Skandelon, Oct 2, 2013.

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  1. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I think your word "attack" is a bit off, you are sounding like another of your compatriots.
     
    #61 quantumfaith, Oct 5, 2013
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You think as you like.I know the difference between debate and attack:thumbsup:
     
    #62 Iconoclast, Oct 6, 2013
  3. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that threads are started on the C&A topic with the intent to bait and then launch into an attack. It happens when the author fails to state or defend their own position. All doubt is removed when that is their repeated M.O. I will leave it to the reader to decide who on either side of the debate is guilty of that.
     
    #63 Herald, Oct 6, 2013
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  4. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    The part of Yeshua1's answer I have bolded is error. A person is not quickened to have the ability to respond and receive Jesus and be saved.

    That is saying you have to be saved to be able to be saved!

    To be quickened IS to be saved, quickening is when all of one's sins and transgressions are forgiven.

    Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

    Colossians 2:13 defines exactly what "quickened" means, it means to be forgiven all your trespasses. However, no man is forgiven all his trespasses until he first believes on Jesus.

    So, this verse proves men have the ability to believe the gospel, and when they do, they will be quickened, having all their sins and trespasses forgiven.

    http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0531.htm

    Spurgeon recognized that it is ridiculous to bid a man who is already quickened and regenerated to believe on Jesus to be saved, when he is already saved.

    What Spurgeon just called ridiculous is exactly what Yeshua1 and most other Calvinists believe. They believe you have to be saved to have the ability to believe and be saved! Absurd.
     
    #64 Winman, Oct 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2013
  5. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Great article. I found no 'differences' with this scholar on his and my 'doctrine of election.' Maybe I wrote something that appeared to contradict this, but I don't think so?
     
    #65 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    At the top of this page you will see that this is a DEBATE forum. Its very purpose is to DEBATE by forming arguments supporting your view of soteriology and denouncing the opposing views. This can be done without making speculations about the character of other posters by implying impure motivations, etc. (ad hominem). When a particular poster takes it upon himself to become the 'motive police' and his target is always those on the 'other side of the isle' the bias becomes obvious.

    Instead, we should choose to engage the discussions that we feel comfortable engaging and refrain from those we don't. We should not speculate as to others character and motive, because we cannot read their minds...especially in a format where we can only read their words and we have the bias of our perspective influencing our judgement.

    Again, the nature of a debate forum with various threads lends itself to 'bite size' discussions, not full manifestos of one's entire systematic approach. If one desires to see or know more about an author's own view, he simply must inquire in a mutually respectable manner. I cannot think of a single time I (or others of my perspective) have been unwilling to provide such when asked.
     
    #66 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  7. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    I agree and know many others who feel the same way, conditioned by experience, which is why they stay out. Well, there are more reasons, but another is that the OP's are generally based upon a faulty premise or are straw man arguments.

    As to the 'op' the offer is given, only the elect will be saved, and 2 Tim. 2:8-10
     
    #67 preacher4truth, Oct 6, 2013
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  8. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Allow me to restate the point that IMO is the most important one of this thread...

    Calvinists take analogies, such as noble vs. ignoble vessels (i.e. Rm 9), and applies them to their dogma that mankind has NOTHING to do with which vessel they will become.

    The passage above CLEARLY denounces that interpretation by showing that a man has the RESPONSE-ABILITY to cleanse himself (repent) so as to BECOME the noble vessel. The idea that some are born noble while the others are born ignoble, and there is no hope of that changing, is shot out of the water with this one verse alone.
     
    #68 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  9. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Ok, now we are getting somewhere. We have an accusation of a faulty premise and a straw man argument.

    A faulty premise is a false or unfounded foundation conclusion. Maybe you can quote that 'faulty premise' for us and make your case?

    A 'straw man argument' is a debate fallacy where one makes unfair or untrue presumptions about their opponents position so as to tear it down. Maybe you can quote that 'straw man argument' for us and make your case?

    Then we would actually be debating instead of making unfounded blanket accusations that never actually engage the content of the thread. I look forward to hearing your case.
     
    #69 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  10. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    No need to be condescending toward a brother.

    You've been called on that many times for not practicing what you preach. We suppose ('others of my perspective') that we must simply all be wrong. :rolleyes:
     
    #70 preacher4truth, Oct 6, 2013
  11. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Again, you are reading a motive into my words. I was simply pointing out the purpose of this forum so as to help people understand the difference between a perceived 'attack' and an honest debate of the issues (as those can be confused in the written forum). I think if you read back through my posts you will see that I have discussed the topic not the person. When you read a 'tone' into the words of your opponent things can come across differently than intended. I apologize if this sounded condescending, that wasn't my intent.

    Now, can we discuss the topic at hand? Thanks
     
    #71 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  12. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    :thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
     
    #72 quantumfaith, Oct 6, 2013
  13. preacher4truth

    preacher4truth Active Member

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    People have discernment, and simply because you want to act as if using it is wrong, doesn't make it wrong, and people are going to continue to use their good common sense and address the apparent. Several have called you on this, and many from your tribe do the same toward our camp, unremittingly at times, and it is hardly ever an issue when it comes from that side nor is it rebutted or addressed. So let's leave it alone unless it's going to get the same attention without any bias.

    And this; perhaps listen to your peers for a change, and, uh, change? :wavey:

    I've addressed the topic when it came up, and I've addressed the personal remarks when they've come up, which is exactly the pattern you've practiced.

    What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    As to your OP, I've already answered it sufficiently. If that sounds condescending, well, maybe it does, that's up to you. :thumbs:
     
    #73 preacher4truth, Oct 6, 2013
  14. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    P4T, sorry you feel that way and forgive me if I have offended you.

    Now, can we debate the topic of the thread...specifically the last point that was made?
     
    #74 Skandelon, Oct 6, 2013
  15. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    I appreciate your "over kindness" to unwarranted criticisms of particular individuals. I only wished I could keep my "cool" as well as you do. Blessings. Oh...and don't change!!! You represent yourself, and many of us who disagree with "reformational theology" in one degree or another very well and quite articulately.
     
    #75 quantumfaith, Oct 6, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 6, 2013
  16. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Here is what Spurgeon believed about the gospel;

    http://www.spurgeongems.org/vols28-30/chs1717.pdf
     
    #76 Winman, Oct 6, 2013
  17. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    I second (and third) this sentiment. Skandelon does a great job.

    BTW, no one has rebutted his take on 2 Tim 2:20-21. Nor has anyone taken on Winman's view on quickening.

    I suppose one should place "Would you please address the OP" or "Would you please address the topic" on one's clipboard so it's handy to reply to Calvinists.
     
    #77 InTheLight, Oct 6, 2013
  18. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Agreed. Although they do a good job of coming to each other's defense. I honestly do admire that.
     
    #78 Herald, Oct 6, 2013
  19. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    "Would you please address the topic?"


    (see what I mean)
     
    #79 InTheLight, Oct 6, 2013
  20. Herald

    Herald New Member

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    Do a search of my posts and you will see that I have absolutely no aversion to addressing topics. As I go through this particular thread I see the OP answered. Maybe not to the author's or your satisfaction, but it is answered. That you cannot realize that is a problem you need to deal with.
     
    #80 Herald, Oct 6, 2013
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