The Often Heard Modern Gospel

If you can't grasp that "self-determination" is free will then it is hopeless to continue the subject.

 

Self determination in God is determined by the heart of God. God's heart is immutably righteous and therefore it is impossible for God to will contrary to righteousness. Not because lack of will power but because lack of desire as his heart desires are immutably righteous and nothing externally can tempt God contrary to His immutably internal desires of His heart. In other words the nature of God determines His will.

Adam was not created in a state of immutable righteousness. He was created in a state of mutable innocence with the ability to maintain or violate that innocence by the act of the will. Hence, there was no immutable INTERNAL desire. The fall was influenced by EXTERNAL temptations that moved him to wrong desires arising within.

Due to the choice to violate His innocense of sin his heart became IMMUTABLY confirmed in unrighteous so that he loved darkness and hated light. Hence, in keeping with immutable unrighteousness (Rom. 8:7) it is impossible for fallen man to will contrary to his unrighteous nature only because he "will not."

Therefore, he is like God in regard to immutability of nature but conversely so. If you can show that God "will" choose to do evil, then you can show that man "will" choose to do good. Both have the power of contrary choice but neither "will" choose what is contrary to their nature. Moreover, the Scriptures confirm this - "there is none that DOETH GOOD, NO, NOT ONE." They "can not" only because they "will not" and they "will not" because their heart loves darkness and hates light. So it is not a matter of "can not" but "will not" and it is because they "will not" that they "can not." Hence, it is not a lack of power but a lack of desire and motive.


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Absolutely false. Fallen man has the power of choice between two or more possibilities involving decision. The power is present but the desire is not. The desire is determined by what the heart loves (loves darkness) and what the heart hates (hates light) and therefore they can not choose light ONLY because they "will not" choose light.

Nothing prevents the worst sinner from coming to the light except his own free will!

Again, the heart determines the desire in God as in man. Both have the power of contrary choice but neither "will" choose contrary to the immutable state of their heart.

In contrast, prefallen man had no immutable condition of heart. His heart was neither immutably righteous or immutably evil but simply innocent of sin with full capabilty to choose evil as to choose good. The desire for choice was provided EXTERNALLY through temptations. However, in God and in fallen man the desire is immutably fixed from WITHIN.

 

In God and in man the seat of mental and emotional desires is the “heart.” It is also the seat of self-determination as it is “with the heart man believeth” (Rom. 10:10), as well as, with the heart he refuses to believe – “evil heart of unbelief”- Heb 3:12

Hence, the will of man is simply the vehicle of expression for the heart. This is proven by the nature of the two Greek words translated “will” in the Greek New Testament:

1. Boulomai – Intellectual determination
2. Thelema – Emotional determination

Self-determination in God is the function of His heart. God’s heart is immutably righteous. Therefore His will is simply an expression of an immutable righteous heart. His inability to sin does not arise from the lack of will power but from the lack of heart motive and desire for sin. His heart motives and desires are immutably righteous. Since his heart or INTERNAL condition is immutably righteous He cannot be tempted by EXTERNAL means to sin.

Self-determination in fallen Adam is the function of his heart. Fallen man’s heart is immutably unrighteous. Therefore his will is simply an expression of his immutable unrighteous heart. His inability to choose and do righteousness does not arise from the lack of will power but from the lack of heart motive and desire for righteousness.

Rom. 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one….12 there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

His heart motives and desires are immutably unrighteous and the Scriptures clearly teach this:

John. 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.


Just as in God the heart is immutably righteous so that no external temptation to do evil has any influence or power to tempt His heart to choose evil, so also, in fallen man the heart is immutably evil and no external temptation to do righteousness has any influence or power to change his heart to do good. The only way to reverse the immutable state of the heart in either is for the heart to be replaced by a new heart.

Nothing prevents the worst of sinners from coming to God and doing righteousness except their own free will and nothing prevents the free will from choosing to do so but the heart’s intent and desires love for darkness and hatred for light. Fallen Adam cannot simply and only because he “will not.”

Rom. 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Adam was not created in a state of immutable righteousness. He was created in a state of mutable innocence. He had no experiential knowledge of good or evil in regard to making alternative choice between the two. He possessed the power of choice to maintain or violate his state of innocence by simple choice between alternative options. Since his heart was not immutability fixed either way then the internal heart of pre-fallen Adam could be brought under the influence and power of external temptations to choose either good or evil. Hence, there was no immutable INTERNAL desire as in God or fallen Adam. The fall was influenced by EXTERNAL temptations that moved him to wrong desires arising within.

Due to the choice to violate His innocence by the choice to sin, he fell from his MUTABLE innocent internal state and his heart became IMMUTABLY confirmed in unrighteous so that he loves darkness and hates light.

Therefore, he is now like God in regard to immutability of nature but conversely so. If you can show that God "will" choose to do evil, then you can show that man "will" choose to do good. Both have the power of contrary choice but neither "will" choose what is contrary to the intent and desires of their hearts.

So, neither God or man lacks will power in regard to alternative moral choices but they lack internal intent and desire to choose and do what is morally contrary to the immutable condition of their own heart. They “can not” only because they “will not” and they “will not” because their moral intent and desires are immutable.

James 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

This was true in pre-fallen Adam and this is true in fallen Adam.

Nothing prevents the worst sinner from coming to the light except his own free will! It is not a lack of will power but a lack of heart intent and desire.

Again, the heart determines the desire in God as in man. Both have the power of contrary choice but neither "will" choose contrary to the immutable state of their heart.

The only way contrary moral choice is possible in either God or fallen man is by creation of a new heart.

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Ezekiel 36:26 is the New Covenant description of how God saves sinners.

 

Hi Biblicist,

The only way that a sinner can come to God is by "believing" the gospel. And I cannot see who a person's "will" has anything at all to do with believing it.

After all, how can a person "will" himself to believe something which he has not yet determined to be true? That is impossible!

A person either believes or does not believe based on the "evidence" that he has in his possession. And that same evidence remains an integral part of the sum total of his faith once he believes:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

The "evidence" that the gospel is true comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and only those who "resist the Holy Spirit" reject the evidence presented in the gospel.

So the ability to believe the gospel has nothing to do with one's "will."

 

Your statement above demonstrates the "will" is consequential to prior determination and thus is simply the expression of that determination. What is it within human nature that provides that service that the human "will" simply expresses?

The Bible says it is the heart. "WITH THE HEART man believeth" (Rom. 10:10) and with the heart man refuses to believe "heart of unbelief" (Heb. 3:12).

Hence, the will simply expressed the heart and it is the heart that is the seat of intellectual and emotional desires/determinations or "the intent and thoughts of the heart."

That is precisely why the term translated "will" in the New Testament is a term that shows the "will" is expressing either the intellect or the emotions:

1. "will" = Greek "Thelema" - emotional determination
2. "will" = Greek "boulomai" - mental determination

If the heart of man is immutably wicked, so that the intent and thoughts of the heart love darkness and hate light, then they "will not" come to the light as the will simply expresses the desires of the heart (mental/emotional).

Please reread my previous post again and I think you will see that human "will" does not act independent of the heart just as you admit that the will cannot act until a previous determination is made.

 

Biblicist,

Please tell me how it is possible for anyone to "will" themselves to believe something which they are not yet convinced is true. Your whole argument is dependent on the idea that a person can actually will themselves to believe something of which they are not yet convinced is true.

That idea is absurd!

 

If that was my position your point would be great! My whole argument is on the very reverse of your charge! I don't believe even God is able "to will" himself to do anything much less any man. You simply do not understand what I said. Please go back and read what I said and try to understand it.

I will know you understand what I said, when you stop making this argument against my position. The "will" never acts by itself or independently from the heart of God or man.

 

Please allow me to quote you again:

You said that "Nothing prevents the worst of sinners from coming to God and doing righteousness except their own free will."

So according to your idea a man's "will" plays an integral part in regard to him coming to Christ. That is why I said:

The only way that a sinner can come to God is by "believing" the gospel. And I cannot see who a person's "will" has anything at all to do with believing it.

After all, how can a person "will" himself to believe something which he has not yet determined to be true? That is impossible!

A person either believes or does not believe based on the "evidence" that he has in his possession. And that same evidence remains an integral part of the sum total of his faith once he believes:

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" (Heb.11:1).

The "evidence" that the gospel is true comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and only those who "resist the Holy Spirit" reject the evidence presented in the gospel.

So the ability to believe the gospel has nothing to do with one's "will."

Your argument is based on the idea that the only things which prevents a person from coming to God is a person's "free will" and we both know that the only way that a person can come to God is by believing the gospel.

So if a man's free will is involved in a person coming to God then please answer my question:

Please tell me how it is possible for anyone to "will" themselves to believe something which they are not yet convinced is true.

Thanks!

 

If that were all that I said in that quotation you would be perfectly right. However, you simply picked and chose what part you wanted to quote and use. Go back to the same quotation you gave and note that I gave the reason for the will/choice -


Nothing prevents the worst of sinners from coming to God and doing righteousness except their own free will and nothing prevents the free will from choosing to do so but the heart’s intent and desires love for darkness and hatred for light. Fallen Adam cannot simply and only because he "will not."

Now, if I had said ONLY that part which you took out of context, and if I had said it in a vaccum or as an isolated phrase you would have a point. However, I did not. Indeed, the whole article that I wrote gave emphasis to the part I placed in bold in the above quote. Here is where your argument simply falls apart.

 

So is the following part of what you said true or not?:

I see nothing that you said after that which leads me to believe that what you say there is not the truth as you see it.

Do those words reflect your idea of the truth or not?

Thanks!

 

Are you simply trying to win a debate? Are you interested in what I said according to the context I placed it or are you interesting in merely jerking a statement out of context and making it mean only what you want it to mean? If the latter than this discussion is useless, if the former than why don't you accept the context it is placed in????

Nothing prevents the worst of sinners from coming to God and doing righteousness except their own free will and nothing prevents the free will from choosing to do so but the heart’s intent and desires love for darkness and hatred for light. Fallen Adam cannot simply and only because he "will not."

A person may choose to receive or reject the truth. However, that choice is not made in a vacuum or unrelated to their own hearts condition. The condition of their heart determines the choices they make. Their heart has to do mental/emotional determinations that their will simply expresses.

So, in answer to your question. If you simply rip my statement from its context then you are correct. However, in the context it is placed, it is given further qualfications indicated by the "but" and words that follow. What are those words?

"and nothing prevents their own free will from choosing to do so BUT the heart's intent and desires love for darkness and hatred for light." What do those words means in conjunction with the words "Nothing prevents the worst sinner from coming to God and doing righteousness except their own free will." It means that freedom of choice is contingent upon the condition of the heart and is incapable of expressing anything contrary to the heart as the heart is the seat of intellectual/emotional determinism.

I guess I could have said it clearer by saying?

Nothing prevents the worst sinner from freely choosing to come to God and do righteousness but their own heart's love for darkness and hatred of light. However, since their own heart loves darkness and hates light there is no way they will choose to come to God and do righteousness because choice does not occur in a vacuum or independant from the intents and thoughts of the heart.

 

No, I was merely quoting your own words and asking if your own words which I quoted reflect your beliefs. But thanks for being more precise here:

You are right about the "worse sinner" but the following indicates that not all men love the darkness and hate the light:

"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God" (Jn.3:19).

Even those who have not yet believed the gospel can live by the truth, as witnessed by what Paul said here:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves" (Ro.2:14).

Of course those who are afraid that their deeds will be exposed are without excuse because they do those things according to their own free will.

In order that all can have a possibilty to come to the light God sends His stewards so that the unbelievers can hear the gospel:

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent?" (Ro.10:13-15).

 

This text admits no such thing. Romans 3:9-11 is UNIVERSAL. Romans 3:19-20 is UNIVERSAL. Matthew 19:17 is UNIVERSAL. So there is no such human that COMES INTO THIS WORLD with love for light and hatred for darkness!

The words "BUT whosoever lives by the truth comes into the light" are explained by the last phrase! That ability does not come from them but from God. Your translation is wrong! Those who do wickedness do it "in the sight of God" as much as the other. The translation "in the sight of God" is rediculous in this context. The Greek word is "εργαζομαι ergazomai" rooted in the word translated "work" not "sight" and Jesus is clearly saying that all who do walk in the light and come to the light is due to the WORK OF GOD - or the NEW BIRTH just spoken of in verses 1-11.

 

No,those words must be understood by the context and the context reveals that it is only those who do not fear God who are in view (Ro.3:18).

The context must also include what is said earlier and in these verses we can see that "all men" can know God's eternal power and divine nature based soley on the light of nature:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" (Ro.1:18-20).

Those who "suppress the truth" of that which God has made plain are "without excuse" when they deny the existence of God. Another display of God's eternal power which is revealed in nature is thethe weather, and that revelation results in many having a fear or reverance of God:

"He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard...Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty...Men do therefore fear him" (Job 37:3-4,22,24).

The Hebrew word translated "fear" in this verse means "to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe" (Gesenius's Lexicon).

This demonstrates that "all men" have the ability to know that God exists and all men therefore have the ability to have a reverence of God. Therefore the verses which you quoted in an attempt to prove your point are not "universal" because they are only speaking of those who do not fear God.

Well, the Lord Jesus was made like us in every way and since He came into the world with love for the light so do we:

"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for* the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:21).

The words "wrought in God" are referring to God's law which He puts in the hearts of all men, the same law of which the conscience bears witness:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness" (Ro.2:14-15).