The Pen of the Scribes is in Vain Jer. 8:8

Hi Charles, good points and good questions.

"As it stands now we have not only differing manuscripts (maybe some more reputable than others, maybe some only a little different - but still different), but many languages in the world. Where is there logically room for a word for word inerrant bible? If it is not exactly word for word then we're left with some differences being acceptable - because this WILL happen in translating it into other languages. "

Charles, I will try to address the issues you brought up, and they are very good questions.

First, God never promised to give every nation or individual Christian a perfect Bible, or any Bible at all. See Psalms 147:19-20 for this principle, and witness all of history even to the present day.

Secondly, the textual differences between the various versions are huge, not just minor.

See this two part easy to read site that lists just some of the examples.

http://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

Thirdly, it often is not just the texts, but the meanings given in the various versions that are in error. I have numerous examples of these. The Jer. 8:8 verse itself and the Ezekiel 14:9 are just two of literally hundreds of such examples.

Fourthly, a translation does not have to be strictly "word for word" to be the true words of God. I have never said it has to be word for word, though I know some KJB onlies do. Though generally speaking the KJB is far more "literal" than the others.

All versions frequently will use 2, 3, or 4 words to express one word in Greek or Hebrew, and vice versa. There is nothing wrong with this. God does it Himself when "quoting" something from Hebrew into Greek.

A true Holy Bible does not have to be a "word for word" translation, but it must contain ALL the right texts, and it must be inerrant for it to be the true words of God.

I firmly believe that only the King James Holy Bible meets these requirements.

And I just as firmly believe that only God can reveal this to us.

The inevitable position that one falls back on if he is not a KJB only believer, is one that denies the existence of any inspired, complete, inerrant words of God anywhere on this earth, or else the absurd inanities of such as Mr. ED and pastor Bob who tell us all translations are inspired by the same Holy Spirit.

When pressed to actually explain how many clear examples of total confusion can all equally be the inspired words of God, they refuse to step forward and present the evidence, but instead show up every once in awhile with some silly pot shot at the KJB only position.


I hope this helps explain how I understand these issues. I believe we do have God's inerrant words on earth today, and they are found only in their purest form in the KJB.

Will K

 

For those who apparently like jokes, here is one that will get various reactions.


Bible Version Joke

There were three modern version proponents (MVPs) who were always arguing with a King James Bible believer (KJBb), but the KJBb could never convince the MVPs; it was always three against one. One day they were all walking together along a country road, and as usual, the topic turned to the Bible version issue.

The KJBb was getting pretty frustrated, because no matter what arguments and examples he brought up, it was still three against one, and he just couldn't seem to win any of them over to his side.

So he silently prayed and asked God to give them all a sign, so they could see that he was right. Suddenly, a dark cloud appeared, the wind blew and lightning flashed. The KJBb said: "Did you see that! See, God is telling you all that the KJB is the true word of God."

"No", the MVPs said, "that's just a little storm, nothing unusual about that." It was still three against one. So the KJBb silently asked God to give a bigger sign. A few minutes later, again the dark clouds, the wind, and this time the lightning flashed and hit a nearby tree which exploded and fell over.

"See" said the KJB believer, "God is giving us a sign that the KJB is right, and you are wrong." "No, that's just another storm, nothing more" answered the MVPs. It remained three against one.

The KJB believer was about to ask God to show a really, really big sign when suddenly there was a booming voice from heaven which said: "The King James Bible is really My true words."

The KJBb was very thankful for this clear testimony from heaven. So he turned to the MVPs and asked: "So what do you think now?". "Well", said one of the MVPs, "now it's three against two."

 

Bro. Will, your mention of "pastor Bob", did you really mean "Dr. Bob"?

Yes, I mean the good Doktor Bob. I thought I saw him sometimes use "pastor" and other times Dr.

Dr. Bob is one of the resident scholars who came up with this gem.

"NOW SERIOUSLY, we are truly blessed to have so many choices when buying our Bibles. There are almost as many different versions of the Bible as there are different types of people-but we are all created by the same God, and all of our Bibles are written by the same Holy Spirit. "

I think it would be of great interest (and amusement) to see the good doctor explain this conclusion he has arrived at after so many years of deep study and reflection.

Will

 

Hi Charles,

Regarding your statement, "A true Holy Bible does not have to be a "word for word" translation, but it must contain ALL the right texts, and it must be inerrant for it to be the true words of God" ...


It seems that you feel that the MVs do not meet these requirements. The wording of the statement seems to suggest that you have not excluded the possibility that another translation (not necessarily an existent one!)
could fufill these requirements!

Hi Charles, Yes on both counts. The MVs are certainly not the true words of God, though they do contain many of them, but they pervert many and omit many others.

As for a future translation via the Providence of God, I admit it is possible, but unlikely to occur in the forseeable future.

Who would do it? What parts would they change? Would you do away with the more accurate "thee" and "ye"?

Just because there are a few "archaic" words in the KJB does not invalidate it as God's true words. There are many words, a couple hundred at least, in the niv, nkjv that most people do not know.

Kids love to learn new words if it is slang, don't they? Yet our sinful natures rebel against learning a new "old" word.

Rather than dumb down the Bible, we should stick to what God in His providence has given us. The KJB exalts God and reveals the sinfulness of man like no other Bible. It also informs the mind and purifies the thinking.

Your post reminded me of something. I will try to post it later.

God bless,

Will

 

Hi Charles, here are some thoughts by Dr. Edward F. Hills on the modern versions. I think he is right on.


Bible Versions and the Logic of Faith

By Dr. Edward F. Hills, taken from his book Believing Bible Study, copyright 1977 pages 54-55.

During the past century many translations of the New Testament into English have been published. The first two, the English Revised (1881) and the American Standard (1901) versions, were done in the style of the King James (Authorized) Version, but afterwards modern English was used.

Some of the best known of these modern speech versions are as follows: Weymouth's (1903), 20th Century (1904), Moffatt's (1913), Goodspeed's (1923), Williams (1937), Berkeley (1945), Revised Standard (1946), Phillips (1952-58), Amplified (1958), New American Standard (1960), New English Bible (1961), Living Bible (1962-67), Today's English Version (1966), Jerusalem Bible (1966), New American Bible (1970), New International (1973).

The avowed purpose of all these new versions, especially those in modern speech, is to encourage young people and new converts to read and study the Bible. Our contemporary teen-agers, it is said, who spend most of their time watching TV and listening to rock and roll, are certainly not going to be interested in a Bible written in the language of old King James. Hence, if you wish to make any progress in winning young people to Christ, the first thing to do is to put your King James (Authorized) Version in the attic and go out and buy yourself a modern-speech version, preferably one of the latest. Then you may be able to make converts and get them really interested in studying the Bible.

This is a plausible argument, almost invincible at first sight. But the facts have proved it false. Modern-speech versions do NOT promote interest in Bible study among young people - or old people either, for that matter. Never since the Reformation has there been a time in which the Bible has been less read and studied among Christians than today.

Family worship and Bible reading have become a rarity even in professedly Christian homes. Memorization of Scripture is also largely a thing of the past. Even converts read the Bible much less than they used to. The Scripture verses which once interlarded their testimonies are now absent, and one senses that they have never been brought face to face with the authoritative Word of God. In fact, it is only among the readers of the King James Version that due love and reverence for God's Word may be found.

Far from promoting an interest in believing Bible study among young people, these modern versions are much more likely to spread doubt and unbelief. For they all rest upon a foundation of naturalistic New Testament textual criticism which ignores or denies the providential preservation of the holy Scriptures and treats the text of the New Testament like the text of any other book.

Hence it is inconsistent for us orthodox Christians who say that we believe in the providential preservation of the Scriptures to use these modern versions that ignore or deny the providential preservation of the Scriptures. But if we go ahead and do this anyway, then God will punish us with loss of faith in the New Testament text. For if we ignore the providential preservation of Scripture, then we can be no more sure of the text of the New Testament than of the text of any other book.

And this skepticism will grow and eat away like a cancer until our whole Christian faith is well nigh gone. For if we no longer believe in the providential preservation of the New Testament, how can we believe in the infallible inspiration of the original New Testament manuscripts? For why would God infallibly inspire these original manuscripts if He did not intend to preserve their texts by His special providence down through the ages?

And if the writers of these original manuscripts were not infallbly inspired, how can we be sure that their record is true? How can we be sure that Jesus really said what these New Testament writers represent Him as saying? How can we be sure that Jesus really was the Son of God?

Such is the logic of unbelief which begins with the use of these modern-speech New Testament versions and ends in complete uncertainty about everything.

The tendency therefore of modern versions is not to encourage Bible study among young Christians and new converts, but rather to lead them away from the Bible by introducing them to the logic of unbelief. Hence if we wish to interest young people - and also older people - in the study of the Bible, we must do just the opposite. We must instruct them in the logic of faith and then show them how this logic leads them safely and surely to the true Bible text."


Dr. Edward F. Hills

 

Hi Charles, the KJB has not changed in its meaning or texts since 1611. There have been changes in Gothic to Roman type, correction of printing errors, and updated Spelling of some words, but no changes in meaning.

I find it interesting that you would mention Psalm 138:2. If your class is attentive to the meaning of specific words, then let's see what the various versions have done with this verse.

Psalm 138:2 Magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name

Psalm 138:2 "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for the lovingkindness and for thy TRUTH: for thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name."

The word "Truth" is disappearing from the modern bibles. The word TRUTH is found 118 times in the Old Testament of the KJB. In the NASB the number is down to 92, 26 fewer times than the KJB and in the NIV the number is down to 41 times, or about one third the number of times as in the KJB. Maybe with one or two more modern, improved, up to date versions, we will finally be rid of that pesky word "truth". It seems the modern scholars are working on it.

The NIV and nas have substitued "faithfullnes" for truth, and the meaning is not the same. For example in Psalms 100:5 "For the LORD is good; his MERCY is everlasting; and his TRUTH endureth to all generations." The NASB has "lovingkindness" instead of "mercy" and "faithfulness" instead of truth.

Mercy is God not dealing with us as our sins and iniquities deserve. The NIV has "love" instead of mercy, and faithfullness instead of truth.

In fact, if you look at the complete concordances, the words "mercy, merciful, and mercies" occur 288 times in the Old Testament of the KJB, while in the NASB only 51 times and the NIV only 85 times. They substitute either lovingkindness, or as in the niv "love" which is a totally different word in Hebrew and in English.

Love and mercy are not at all the same things. Mercy implies that we deserve judgment, punishment and condemnation, but God has not done so with us. Love does not have this meaning at all. Something is definitely lost in the modern versions.

(I know already what some of the experts will come back with, about how the word "mercy" can be also "lovingkindness", and it also can mean several other things as well, but the point remains.)

The phrase in Ps. 138:2 "thou hast magnified thy word ABOVE all thy name" is found in the 1917 and 1936 Hebrew- English versions, Revised Version, the NKJV, the American Standard Version, Green's interlinear, Geneva Bible, Spanish of 1909 and 1960, Darby, Youngs and the Italian Diodati. This is literally what it says.

The NASB however says: "For Thou hast magnified Thy word ACCORDING TO all Thy name". The word is # 5921 - (al) - and it means "above" as in Gen. 1:7 the waters were above the firmament" and Gen.27:39 dew from heaven above.

The NIV, and the 2001 ESV read: "You have exalted above all things your name and your word." Just by switching a few words around they have changed the meaning of the whole sentence. But at least they correctly translated "above" whereas the NASB did not.

Thr RSV is interesting in that it reads: "Thou hast exalted above everything thing Thy name and Thy word." It reads basically like the NIV, ESV, but the RSV tells us in their footnotes: - 'Hebrew "exalted Thy word ABOVE all thy name." The NRSV reads like the RSV, and its footnote tells us they have "corrected" the text (Cn), and that the Hebrew literally says what is found in the KJB. A similar footnote is found in the ESV.

This is what the Hebrew and the KJB read, but the new version editors have a much lower view of God's word, and here is one example of many where they have changed what God really said.

Will K