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The plot to secede from the Union!

Discussion in 'History Forum' started by Salty, Jan 26, 2021.

  1. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Use caution about saying Never.
    "Normally, I never say never"

    Back in the 1300's - I wonder how Bilbe scholars interpreted those verses - as England & USA were not world powers at that time.
     
  2. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    First for Scott, America has not always supported Israel and even gave Nazis a new home if they could be used, like Mr. Werner von Braun.


    Quantrill,

    "So, with you, there is no Scriptural proof that America is established by God. In fact there isn't any Scriptural proof that America exists. "

    I did not say find a verse with "America" in it. I asked for "scriptural proof by example or principle".
    So you scooted out of that by misquoting me. The exact same thing you said that I do.
    God makes the nations so God made America.

    I did not say this either,
    when you said , "When the fight starts you back off and bemoan "how unchristian all are." I did not say you are unchristian/not Christian.
    I just said you have not made a good enough case for me using scripture for your position. And by saying "be quiet" you did not give any scriptural backing for saying that either.

    You don't know what I am going to do under pressure and neither do I.
    It is sure possible to imagine me on my knees sniveling and begging for my life to be saved but ONLY God knows what will happen.
    I can also imagine you shooting me and thinking you were doing God a favor.
    ... yea the time cometh, that whoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service. John 16:2

    Yeah you are right, in your idea, look what happened to JFK for tacitly backing the Bay of Pigs and pulling out at the end.
     
  3. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    1947 UN vote votes for Israel,

    https://mfa.gov.il/Jubilee-years/Pa...the-establishment-of-the-State-of-Israel.aspx

    And the US has been the most favorable country regarding Israel all the years since then.
     
  4. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    The writer of the article points out that Daniel was not to be understood until the end of the last days. So the idea is someone in 1300 AD still had 700 years to go, so would not have understood what it meant. And the USA was not in existence.

    Daniel 12:9
    And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    We will know it is the time of the end for certain if we see the antichrist revealed. ( he is not the pope, but the pope is a type of antichrist)
     
  5. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Most favorable in recent years, agreed but to me that means the Trump years.

    Many US presidents and their representatives plus other world leaders have tried to broker deals between Israel and their enemies in the Middle East.
    How much they were actually on the side of Israel, I do not know.

    You could say the Brits have been the most favorable at times but only when it seemed to serve their interest and they were not below turning their backs.

    I still remember the movie, "Exodus" with Paul Newman, where boatloads of refugees from Israel were turned away...
    and then in WWII the plight of the Jews in the camps, while a factor, wasn't enough to get the Allies involved in a war.
     
  6. Scott Downey

    Scott Downey Well-Known Member

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    That was very sad in ww2 with the refugee ship. but that was before Israel was reformed as a nation in it's original homeland. So support for Israel needs to be counted from the time of the UN vote forward, not backwards. And the US has been it's number one supporter. Obama certainly put a damper on that, although Biden says he fully supports Israel.
     
  7. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    The proof of America being established as a Christian nation is found in history. But America is not in the Bible. Yet America exists. Just not in any Bible verse. I didn't misquote you as I didn't quote you. We know what 'Christian' means from the Bible. Thus we know America was established as a Christian nation.

    And you have provided no Bible verses that indicate one cannot kill for political reasons.

    Your view is that to take up arms is unchristian, as Christians should not take up arms because there is no Bible verse that says so. Yet there is no Bible verse that says we are to not take up arms. Thousands if not millions of Christians have died for America as a result of taking up arms.

    I can only go by what you say. If you do contrary to what you say, so be it. But what you are saying, is equivalent to the Bay of Pigs. You feign political support which will lead to physical action. You then do not support the physical action. Such action, you say is not Christian. Such action you say can't be supported in the Bible. It is you who are the type of the Bay of Pigs.

    Quantrill
     
  8. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Hello.
    You just state this "The proof of America being established as a Christian nation is found in history." with out proving it as far as inside this thread goes. You just make general statements and hold them as "facts".

    I tried to tell you that I am exploring this view and probably leaning toward it but your statement contradicts that,
    "Your view is that to take up arms is unchristian, as Christians should not take up arms because there is no Bible verse that says so." but I haven't adopted it wholeheartedly.
    You have only characterized me as doing so. My error for not making it clear, just like on another thread I am exploring whether to purchase an arm for home defense but no, you would not allow me to be in learning mode, just hard promotion of a particular point of view.


    "And you have provided no Bible verses that indicate one cannot kill for political reasons." Yes I have, but you tossed them.
    You also have not demonstrated through scripture that it is ok to kill for a political idea especially with (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds 2 Corinthians 10:4 which is so often repeatedly tossed aside by those whose blood is stirred up.

    Sure there have been many many wars fought with Christians on both sides of the armies. Where is the scripture?

    You get all huffy, seeing your self as a patriot, but putting up a big wall when someone like me askes you to provide a scriptural reason for your belief. Just like I am huffy now asking you to give scripture.

    But the truth is you don't have any.

    Your arguments make sense but without any bible verses.

    Then you talk about the Bay of Pigs like I am a commie. Wow! You are the weak one that "describes" people when they don't agree with you. A man who will throw dirt whenever he can when he cannot provide a scriptural foundation.

    Give some real bible verses and then maybe we can talk like we are brothers.
     
  9. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    The Mayflower compact is a fact. Churches established everywhere throughout America is fact. The president when he is sworn into office has one hand on the Bible and one hand in the air and swears before the God of the Bible is a fact. As does every Supreme Court Justice, which is also a fact.

    The Ten commandments were written all over court houses in America. But of course they are now being removed. Why? Because we used to be a Christian nation.

    No, you have presented yourself as unwilling to take arms as it is not Christian. You keep asking where is the Scripture to do so. But, there is no Scripture to not do so. Your lame use of 'thou shalt not kill' is a wrong use of Scripture as was showed you. So, where is the Scripture? Where is the Scripture that America is not a Christian nation. Where is the Scripture that it is wrong to take up arms as a Christian? You don't have any.

    I have told you time and again that there is no Scripture that says exactly what you demand. It is the history of America that reveals it was established as a Christian nation. My arguments make sense because they are correct. Your's make no sense because they are incorrect. Christians do not take up arms to establish the Kingdom. They take up arms to defend the Christian country of America. Rather, they used to.

    You represent the action taken at the Bay of Pigs which was a betrayal based on what was promised and then not supported, leaving others to the enemy. You like to talk politics, without any Scripture saying you should, but you're not willing to support the inevitable outcome of your political stance, which will be conflict, and war. And you do so with a pharisaical attitude of such action is just not Christian.

    I don't believe your exploring this. You believe you have the perfect argument against Christians taking up arms. But you hypocritically have no Scripture supporting you to argue politics. You haven't given any Scripture that supports your argument. Those you have given, do not support you.

    Quantrill
     
  10. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    What was the Mayflower Compact based on?

    What about this line from another later document, "All men were created equal"?

    Is that not akin to scripture?

    Still you have not provided any scripture to prove it is ok to kill people.

    How about some documents from the War of the States where Christians on the North and on the South killed each other for more than just political views?

    I remember you were pretty quick to show scripture about owning another person.
    And you had a very good point in saying God owns us.

    Just keep piling it on whatever you have.

    It won't convince me but shows years of teaching without using the bible to justify proposed actions.

    Didn't we all grow up with someone dong that to us?

    I'm not going to call you a name but I guess you are inching closer to calling me a liar.

    Why don't you just go ahead if it will make you feel tougher or better.

    You probably feel real good now.
     
  11. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    The Mayflower Compact: "...Having undertaken, for the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith and the honor of our King and country, a voyage to plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia, do by the presents solemnly and mutually in the presence of God and one of another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil body politic, for our better ordering and preservation and furtherance of the ends aforesaid, and by virtue hereof to enact, constitute and frame such just and equal laws, ordinances, acts, constitutions and offices from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and convenient for the general good of the colony...."

    The Mayflower Compact was based on the Glory of God and the advancement of the Christian Faith. America was Christian in it's origin.

    Concerning killing people, we were talking about killing for political reason. Which, as was stated already is what all soldiers do during war. Now you say there are no verses in Scripture saying it's ok to kill people. Not so. There are plenty of instances in the Bible where God used men to kill others. Most importantly is (Gen. 9:6) where God instituted the death penalty. That has never been revoked.

    Yes, I know it won't convince you.

    Quantrill
     
  12. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    You know Quantrill, I have said some rather harsh things to you.
    Many posters would have given up or said something really really bad in their retort.
    But you soldiered on.

    Hopefully I am willing to be convinced by a good biblical argument and not by stretching or twisting the scripture. And, hopefully I am not just saying that in order to look good.
    I see you have some bible verses along with an historical statement.
    You are correct, however, that I have not wholeheartedly accepted your argument.
    Some points I do agree with like Genesis 9:6
    The quote from the Mayflower Compact, while I am sure they were sincere and not just looking to justify their actions, is not a passage from the bible.
    You could say that we base a lot of our behaviors on things that are not from the bible and I would certainly agree to that.

    I did find a passage today that you could use to bolster your stand. It would be a bit of a stretch but nonetheless it is from the bible.
    We are all, every believer of God, going to be in an army. Revelation 19.

    Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Romans 12:19
     
  13. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    If you did say something harsh, I didn't catch it. So no problem there.

    My point has been that there is no verse in the Bible that says Christians are to be involved in politics. Just like there is no verse that says they are not. Same with a plumber.

    The Mayflower Compact is proof of the Christian foundation of American government. For the glory of God and advancement of the Christian faith. And when this Christian government was faced with war with the Indians, they went to war against the Indians.

    The politics of a State may certainly lead to a war. So when this early Christian government was threatened it responded. How is it any different now? The difference now is that the majority of Christians believe as you. We are to be spiritual and not get into politics or take up arms for the country. As a result, the enemy easily takes over the country. The founding of America was based upon fighting and defending and destroying the enemy. It will not be maintained any other way. Which is why it is falling, has fallen away.

    The government of America is based upon a Bible believing, God fearing Christian people. It's Constitution will not work for any other form of government. The liberty and freedoms America was based on, assumed a God fearing people would not turn that liberty into licentiousness or abuse their freedoms. The less Christian we become the more licentious we are and the more we abuse our freedoms. This is why the present administration must go around or try and change the Constitution.

    And what will Christians do? Probably pray, but do nothing.

    Concerning (Rev. 19), that is of a different and future time that I don't believe can apply to action today.

    Concerning (Rom. 12:19) that speaks to wrongs done to the individual believer. I believe I have said before that the Christians must have some legitimate political authority supporting them. They do not just go out and riot. For example, a governor of a State. I am well in my Christian actions to obey the powers that be in following the lead of my State. (Rom. 13:1)

    Quantrill
     
    #73 Quantrill, Feb 26, 2021 at 2:35 AM
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2021 at 2:40 AM
  14. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Ok, thank you for responding.

    I would ask then how this happened:

    " The difference now is that the majority of Christians believe as you. We are to be spiritual and not get into politics or take up arms for the country."

    First I hope this alleged "spirituality" has not puffed me up, so then any true "spirituality" would come in spurts as the Spirit wills apart from my usual self, who has certainly been carnal for many years.

    For the record, have I really said not to get into politics?

    That is somebody else.

    Is it only because, as you intimated previously, we have enjoyed the fruits of others' sacrifice for many years?

    Is there absolutely no scriptural reason for a no blood shed position?

    Misuse of scripture, especially the ones that say we do not war after the flesh for the weapons of our war are not carnal? 2 Corinthians 10:3-4

    There are differences of opinion but "let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind." Romans 14:5

    I will tell you that although I am taking a side that is not yours right now I am double minded inside and of course it is unsettling as James says.

    When I think of what is happening in this less free country I have very negative imaginations.

    Is acting on those the way Jesus wants?

    When I have been really angry over other things I have cared very little about what Jesus or any scripture says.

    So I will just have to work it out.
     
  15. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    @SGO

    It has happened because satan is not idol. he is very industrious. An extremely large portion of his attention is on the governments of nations. They are very much part of the spiritual warfare. See (Dan. 10:12-13) (Dan. 10:20) These 'princes' and 'kings' of Greece and Persia speak to the spiritual authority behind them. They are nations where satan has his will set in motion and obeyed. And though God is overall, He allows this warfare to be played out. And it is played out in the flesh of mankind.

    Just like satan loves it when a people believe he is just a fairy tale, as it affords him freedom to run amuck, so he loves it when Christians believe their purpose shouldn't involve politics or a physical defense of a nation. satan has been busy planting the seeds that are now coming to fruition.

    One of satan's accomplishments was the introduction and acceptance by the Church of a form of Platonic philosophy which says matter is evil and spirit is good. Why it caught hold among believers I don't know, as it doesn't take much thought to know that evil has it's source in the spirit world, not the physical. And it is God who created this physical world, not satan. But it did catch on and so it is used to handcuff believers from physically doing many things because they are viewed as fleshly or worldly.

    Concerning (2 Corinthians 10:3-4), acknowledgement that the war is spiritual, and our weapons in that war are spiritual, does not mean there isn't a physical effort or manifestation. It is us recognizing when we move that we move against a spiritual force. But that spiritual force is manifested in the flesh. When the Israelites went to war in Canaan their weapons were spiritual indeed. But it didn't mean their war was not physical.

    America was established by the blessed people of Japheth, as Christian. God thereby staying in harmony with the blessing and curses given by Noah in (Gen. 9). satan has been busy doing all he can to subvert God's work. And so he has. It is now seen as good to elevate the descendants of Ham to the point of worship in America. And it is good to hate the descendants of Japheth in America. Just like Nimrod was a black man and the first rebellious government against God, so America has been transformed into a black rule and is a rebellious government against God. The angelic authority over America is now evil, just as those found in (Dan. 10) I mentioned at the first. See how satan moved the spiritual warfare into the physical?

    Quantrill
     
  16. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    Food for thought Quantrill, thank you.
    Only one small thing concerning the physical manifestation of the spiritual:

    "Concerning (2 Corinthians 10:3-4), acknowledgement that the war is spiritual, and our weapons in that war are spiritual, does not mean there isn't a physical effort or manifestation. It is us recognizing when we move that we move against a spiritual force. But that spiritual force is manifested in the flesh. When the Israelites went to war in Canaan their weapons were spiritual indeed. But it didn't mean their war was not physical."

    For the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal. 2 Corinthians 10:4

    Seems Paul knew the difference.
     
  17. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    Then sit and do nothing but complain as you have been. Don't put feet to your prayers, or your spiritual weapons. See how far that gets you.

    When you are hungry and in need of food, pray for it. But don't go out and get a job, because you are too spiritual. Your weapons are spiritual. Not carnal. And go ahead and starve and let your family starve with you.

    And while you and your family starve or are killed, ask yourself, did God just expect me to sit here and do nothing. Or did He expect me to pray and then move and then he would be with me and bless?

    But, go ahead...do nothing. And nothing is what you will get.

    Quantrill
     
  18. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    How about pray to God and see what He will do. And while waiting maybe there will be a miraculous appearing of scripture to say God says to use carnal weapons against flesh and blood for His glory.
     
    #78 SGO, Feb 27, 2021 at 6:10 PM
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2021 at 6:15 PM
  19. Quantrill

    Quantrill Active Member

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    That's fine. And sit and do nothing. And watch God answer your prayers.

    Quantrill
     
  20. SGO

    SGO Well-Known Member

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    You have often added "do nothing" as if then killing people is doing something necessary.

    God's instructions to Israel as justification to kill is not the Israel of the bible in the general sense.

    It's the physical nation of the Old Testament.

    And even Paul says, Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:.
    Romans 9:6

    You and I are part of Israel.

    We were grafted in. Romans 11:11-24

    And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and upon the Israel of God. Galatians 5:16

    Then historical documents and history of our nation, even leaving out the bad parts, none of which are scripture, but may be, at best, examples of biblical principles applied.

    Then prayer is intimated as part of "doing nothing".

    "The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much'" says God. James 5:16

    It's not nothing to Him.
     
    #80 SGO, Feb 28, 2021 at 4:50 AM
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2021 at 5:17 AM
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