The Pope Says Don't Do THIS on Sundays

Are you trying to imply that I am not saved? That is against the rules of the board you know.

Joseph Botwinick

 

#1. Sunday is never said to be the Lord's day in scripture. But you are free to worship on Sunday or Tuesday - according to your preference.

#2. The question is -- what about Christ the Creator's own selection a day for a memorial of HiS OWN create work at Creation? Are you free to rebell against it -- are the 10 commandments abolished? If so -- then Tuesday will do as well as Saturday or Sunday. Take your pick - it is all up to you - not God, and keep it however it pleases you best.

#3. The Law of the New Covenent written on the heart - Jer 31:33 is the moral Law of Scripture that defines sin - rebellion vs obedience.

The saints of Heb 11 are not "saved by works" as you seem to think -- they are saved by grace through faith under the ONE and ONLY gospel (Gal 1:6-11). You are preaching "TWO Gospels" -- one for the OT and one for the new -- scripture rejects that idea.

#4. There are "no" "first-day after first-day" services recorded in scripture.

#5. "Weekday1" is not a title of honor - it is the most basic term that can be used for the day. How much better if Acts 20 had used a term like "The Lord's Day" to reference "weekday-1".

NT authors never refer to Christ the Creator's honored memorial of creation - as "weekday7".

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Bob,
Your response to my comments makes no sense whatsoever to me?????????????????????????????

How am I preaching two gospels? And then according to you should I be accursed?
How am I thinking salvation is by works?
And what does it matter what day I fellowship with my brothers in Christ?


Hey would it be a sin if I helped my unsaved neighbor move on a Sunday? Or how about digging out my other neighbor after a sat. night snow fall?

 

#1 seems obvious.

#2. Same with #2.

#3. Take a look at the list you gave for what was "not working" in the OT -= that is the perfect description of "another gospel".

#4 Is also obvious - if you don't agree -- all you have to do is show a single reference in all of scripture where we see day1 after day1 services as we see Sabbath after Sabbath services in places like Acts 13. ... just one place.

As I said - tuesday are fine for fellowship as are Sundays and Saturdays. Having all those days for fellowship does not address the 4th commandment and does not establish "A seven day cycle for fellowship".

I would encourage you to help both the saved and unsaved neighbor that wants to move on Sunday. That also has no bearing on Christ the Creator's 4th commandment.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Do you mean that he did not use the Greek and Roman names for the day - OR do you mean that He did not actually have a day picked out?

He forgot to say "Friday Night" eh?

Wrong.

For that to be true - would we not have to be "confused about what day is the first day" as well? And would it not have to be a coincidence that all Jews and Christians "agree" on what day is the 7th and what day is the first? Is that because the Jews tricked us - or did we trick them?

We would have to assume that Christ the Creator did not know His own Holy day in the Gospels -- or that the days of the week have been lost since the Roman empire fell.

We would have to assume that the Creator did not know His OWN holy day made holy and sanctified in Gen 2:3-4 when He came to announce "Tomorrow is the Sabbath" in Exodus 16.

For your speculation to be correct - God would need to be confused.

AS for the term "FOR IN SIX DAYS the LORD MADE.." meaning that IN SIX DAYS Christ the Creator ACTUALLY DID make the heavens and the earth -- well it remains for those who doubt that this is true -- to make their case.

So then - the 4 commandment is "legalism"? OR the 4th commandment was telling them to rest - but no on which day??

Your post seems very confused.

Do you think that Israel at the foot of Sinai was really allowed to pick "Week-day-3" instead of the 7th day Sabbath?

Note that manna did not fall on "the REAL Sabbath".

No "guessing" was allowed.


The commandment that has "never been show from scripture" is the one that reads...

But -- if you ever do find that language in the Word of God - be sure to let us know.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Are you suggesting that TP, who is obviously Catholic, is not saved? That's against the rules you know.

 

Let's deal with the issues on this thread, not the posters, as per BB rules.

Thanks!
§ue
BB Moderator

 

Are you suggesting that TP, who is obviously Catholic, is not saved? That's against the rules you know. </font>[/QUOTE]No. I am suggesting that the message of the Pope to Catholics is irrelevant to Christians in general as he has no moral authority. I will not make any statements about the salvation of individual Catholics. I will say that I believe Roman Catholic theology is false and anti-Christian.

Joseph Botwinick

 

God is not a respector of persons and this mere man, the pope, has nothing to say that means anything to me as a moral person nor as a Christian.

I also believe RCC theology is false and is leading many down a path to hell.

Ephesians 6:8 knowing that whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free. 9 And you, masters, do the same things to them, giving up threatening, knowing that your own Master also is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him.

Roman Catholicism: Diverse worldwide religious tradition that officially looks to the Pope and his predecessors/successors as God’s human leader of world Christianity. Because of its size and scope—both in membership (about a billion people worldwide) and geographically, the actual beliefs held by devout Catholics are widespread and eclectic. Catholicism has been influenced by liberation theology, especially in parts of South America. In addition, since the 1960s there has been a small but significant element of charismatic Catholics who have been influenced by the larger charismatic movement. A small percentage of Catholics are doctrinally evangelical, and others (such as Matthew Fox) are part of the New Age movement. As a whole, however, the differences between Roman Catholicism and Protestantism are still seen most clearly in the issues of the Reformation. The 16th century reformers distinguished themselves from Catholicism in two key ways. First, they saw the Bible as the sole foundation for authority (sola scriptura) rather than the Pope, church dogma or tradition. Second, the reformers taught salvation by “grace alone” (sola gracia). They also insisted that sola gracia could be faithfully maintained only by understanding the gospel to be the message of a free pardon and righteous standing with God through “faith alone” (sola fide) in the imputed righteousness of Christ. The Roman Catholic Church claimed (and still claims) to affirm sola gracia, but anathematized sola fide, teaching instead that grace is received and maintained by a combination of faith plus works (religious rites, sacraments, or human endeavor).

http://www.watchman.org/watchman.htm

Watchman Fellowship is an independent Christian research and apologetics ministry focusing on new religious movements, cults, the occult and the New Age. We serve the Christian and secular community as a resource for cult education, counselling, and non-coercive intervention.

 

Bob, What I am preaching is the fact that we are saved by grace through faith, and that NOT depending on any work we do, either by observing some day or by saying the right things ect. The Law shows us our sin and our inability to "work" our way to God. That is why Christ said "I am the way..." Jn 14:6 That is why Christ suffered and died, the righteous for the unrighteous. Though He knew no sin He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. It is NOT two gospels I preach but one. The Law is Good if one uses it lawfully.

In this thread we are talking about the Sabbath, when & how, ect. If the Sabbath was an important part of Christian worship, then why was it not included in the Jerusalem Council when Paul wanted to know what it was the gentile believers were to observe. I have heard it argued by a SDA member that everyone was already doing it, therefore it was not needed to be included. Well that is bunk!! Gentile believers came from every pagan religion under the sun. The Sabbath observance was ordered by God to the nation of Israel, not to any gentile people or nation.


By His Grace Alone,
Michael
Friendship Baptist Church

 

I claim that salvation by grace through faith is the Gospel - is the ONE Gospel of Gal 1:6-11, is the ONE Gospel preached "to us JUST as it was to them also" in Heb 4:1 and is the ONE way of salvation by which the OT saints of Heb 11 were born-again, accepted by God and "saved".

ONE Gospel -- not two.

So I agree with your statement above -- that this is the way of salvation -- this is THE Gospel.

I differ with what I understand to be your "other gospel" idea for the OT SAINTS.

Here we absolutely agree.

The Law says to Love God with all of our heart - but we do not do it perfectly. Christ's works stand in place of ours - but we are not free to "love the world instead - because Christ did the real part for us".

All such models of rebellion are foreign to the New Birth.

Indeed - but IN THAT CONTEXT - Christ in John 14 says BEFORE the Cross "IF you LOVE Me KEEP My commandments".

He did not say "IF you love Me - understand that KEEPING My commandments is not possible and I don't really care if you rebell against them or not".

The Jerusalem Council relied on the fact that the Gentiles were hearing Moses "read in the Synagogues every Sabbath" just as we see them doing in Acts 13.

The Jerusalem Council DID NOT say "Love the Lord with all your heart" Deut 6.5 But that OT Mosaic law REMAINS in effect "anyway" -- because the Council was not an exaustive list of "all that is Bible".

Wrong. In Isaiah 58 it is explicitly applied to non-Jews.

In Isaiah 66 it is for "ALL MANKIND" for in the New earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to Worship".

In Gen 2:3 it is "SANCTIFIED" and made Holy as a Holy day unto the Lord while there is only ADAM and EVE. As in ADAM we all sinned - so in Adam we all were obligated to honor Christ the Creator's OWN Holy Day.

In Isaiah 58 it is the LORDS day "the Day Holy To the Lord"

In Mark 2:27 Christ again applies the Sabbath to ALL MANKIND saying "Sabbath was MADE FOR MANKIND".

It is impossible to ignore this. Which is why I ask the question about the 10 commandments. Many - in order to attack Christ the Creator's Holy Day will abolish Christ's Ten Commandments.

I argue that Paul rejects that by saying "Do we then ABLOLISH the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH God's Law" Rom 3:31.

You yourself confess to the validity of God's law by admitting that it defines sin - EVEN today and so EVEN today it points us to our need of a Savior.

That means that Sabbath breaking is SIN just as Adultery is SIN.

The fact that you may not always have pure thoughts does NOT release you from the commandment. You must STILL choose obedience regarding the commandment about adultery, murder, theft, etc.

Paul makes the case in 1Cor 6 that Christians who think that sinful or wicked living is the living that we are called to as Christians "are deceived". We must not only be FORGIVEN - but we must also be "cleansed from all unrighteousness" (1John 1) in that we WALK as Christ WALKED (1John 2:4-9)- else God calls us "liars".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Qoute: The Law shows us our sin and our inability to "work" our way to God.EQ
Man, the Law is unable to show us a million sins! But Jesus Christ is able to show us what sin is and will show us every and all sins. Seen in Him, I cannot deny a single sin of mine nor my own inherent and total sinfulness.
The Law won't help a bit, an is not needed to show me my sins - Jesus does it all. And More! Because He also shows me Salvation and Rest for my soul. That, the Law cannot do - even though it is the Holy Law of God.
Or wait, it does show Salvation, because the end of the Law is Jesus Christ - or the other way round rather: Jesus Christ is the Ened of the Law. The Law is our task-master to Christ, and if it does not it is not applied correctly, nor understood correctly.
So, when it has fulfilled its purpose, it has reached the pinacle of its glory. Jesus Christ takes over. Truth is, that even the Law's function to bring us to Christ, is metaphoric expression of reality in action. In the last analysis it is Jesus Christ who gives us an ear to hear the Law and an eye to find Him in the Law.
Every step of this process apllies to discovering the Sabbath too. And once the Sabbath is found in Christ, what would we need the Law for any longer? Only to illustrate the virtue, honour and glory of Jesus - which again, just like that, applies to Sabbath.

 

You must have noticed that nowhere does the pope or Sunday feature in a Christian contemplation on the sabbath day.

 

I guess I'm a sinner! Hell for me for going to church on Sunday. If the Sabbath was so needed in the salvation message, then why did Christ die? (Rhetorical question) It's not I who is preaching two gospels. I now see you are saying salvation by grace, as long as you go to church on Saturday.

 

In a sense, both. God said to rest on the Seventh Day. God did not specify which specific day was the first day, second day, etc.

Actually, you've got it wrong. Jews did not observe a "week" as we know it. They simply observed the Sabbath Day following every six days of work. SInce they did this as a comunity, they all observed the Sabbath at the same time. We today follow the seven day week in accordance with the Julian and Gregorian calendars. The 7-day week was introduced in Rome (where ides, nones, and calends were the vogue) in the first century A.D. by Persian astrology fanatics, not by Christians or Jews. The idea was that there would be a day for the five known planets, plus the sun and the moon, making seven; this was an ancient West Asian idea.

When Christianity became the official religion of the Roman empire in the time of Constantine (c. 325 A.D.), the familiar Hebrew-Christian week of 7 days, beginning on Sunday, became conflated with the pagan week and took its place in the Julian calendar. Thereafter, it seemed to Christians that the week Rome now observed was seamless with the 7-day week of the Bible, even though its pagan roots were obvious in the names of the days (Saturn's day, Sun's day, Moon's day, etc).

Given that Jesus did work on the Sabbath, and that Paul says that we are not to be judged by how we keep the Sabbath days, and that Jesus also says that we are not made for the sabbath, but the sabbath for us, it's clear that any NT emphasis on "what day of the week should we rest" is absent.

 

Gerhard Ebersoehn,

Scripture disagrees with you:


Mk 16:9 states plainly that "...when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene...". Scripture here clearly states that Jesus rose on the first day of the week.

Now, Mt.28:1 says that "In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre." This is describing what we know as Sunday morning, not Saturday night. You're incorrect that this verse says when Jesus rose. It does not. Mk 16:9, however, does.

This hasnothing to do with "faulty translations". These excerpts are from the KJV. I have also looked up the passages in Greek, and the content in question is consistent with the KJV translation.

 

Sorry, but you're incorrect. You've moved a comma to change the meaning. The KJV clearly put the comma after the word "week" (when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared...)

If we read it in the koine Greek, the context is clear that after Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared to Mary Magdalene. The KJV agrees with the Greek. In fact, I just looked it up in the NIV, the KNJV, the NASB, and the HCSB. They all agree with the Greek on this point.