1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Pre-incarnate Christ

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hobie, Aug 8, 2020.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The Bible has it all there, but we must prayerfully look, and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.

    Isaiah 9:6 King James Version (KJV) "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

    How can we comprehend this, the mystery of the Godhead of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."

    1 Corinthians 12:3 King James Version (KJV)
    "Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

    The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but its a hard truth to wrap ones head around. Thus, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must make clear, Jesus is not a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary. Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.

    Matthew 1:23 King James Version (KJV)
    "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."

    Just as the prophecy in scripture foretold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......

    Isaiah 7:14 King James Version (KJV)
    "Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel."

    Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediately we are posed with a question that must be answered. Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!

    Now we also have this, "Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me." (Isaiah 43:10 King James Version (KJV))

    The first commandment says,"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." (Exodus 20:3 King James Version (KJV))

    On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10 King James Version (KJV))

    Worship of a creature or even of a image/idol was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25 King James Version (KJV)).

    When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28 King James Version (KJV)), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."(Revelation 4:11 King James Version (KJV))

    Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels. "Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection."(Luke 20:36 King James Version (KJV))

    Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.

    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:(Philippians 2:6 King James Version (KJV))
    If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:

    Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .'who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.'

    Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He presented Himself in a manner to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Spirit can guide us into understanding.

    "4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.."(Hebrews 1:4-8 King James Version (KJV)).

    So wee how important worship is, and you have to look at this issue of worship closely, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. No idols, no graven images, icons or amulets, nothing, not even another day in substitute of His holy day which He made for man at Creation.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  2. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So to worship any other is a sin, and how and the day of worship He made for man is of great importance as we see in scripture. So we find the pre-incarnate Christ in many text, but then we have the mystery of the Godhead as Christ was not brought into existence, rather He always existed as one with the Father. We see Christ as the Creator, as Jehovah, as the Great I AM, and appeared in different ways more than fifty times in the Old Testament before coming as flesh in the New Testament. Now Christ was clear on who is worthy of worship:

    Matthew 4:10 King James Version (KJV) "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

    For any creature to claim the right to be worshipped is blaspheme, and in fact we find this is something the Jews falsely accused Jesus of:

    "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."(John 10:33 King James Version (KJV))

    Now notice these scriptures that show Jesus was worshipped.

    Matthew 2:11 King James Version (KJV) "And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh."

    Matthew 8:2 King James Version (KJV) "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean."

    Matthew 9:18 King James Version (KJV) "While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live."

    Matthew 14:33 King James Version (KJV) "Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God."

    Matthew 15:25 King James Version (KJV) "Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me."

    Matthew 28:9 King James Version (KJV) "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him."

    Matthew 28:17 King James Version (KJV) "And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted."

    Mark 5:6 King James Version (KJV) "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

    Luke 24:52 King James Version (KJV) "And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:"

    John 9:38 King James Version (KJV) "And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him."

    Revelation 5:14 King James Version (KJV) "And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever."

    Then we have Jesus Himself showing us how He existed prior to the Incarnation and His role, it was not hidden, it is right there in the Bible. Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

    John 8:56 King James Version (KJV)
    "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad."

    The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus said, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not see how He possibly have been alive in Abrahams day, so they reacted.

    John 8:57-58 King James Version (KJV)
    "57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

    The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal I AM. Verse 59 says, "Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him".

    Jesus was directly and actively involved in the creation of man as well as the Sabbath. Indeed you find in Genesis, God said...

    "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness" (Genesis 1:26 King James Version (KJV))

    Then there is a prediction of Christ's redemptive work on the cross in Genesis 3:15 King James Version (KJV):
    "And I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel."

    Christ was there at the beginning, from eternity, He is Jehovah God, the Creator, God with us.

    Colossians 2:9
    "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The gospel account by John in the prologe presents the preincarnate Christ. John 1:1-3 and speaks of His incarnation, John 1:14. And that He was Jehovah who appeared in the OT, John 1:18 being the "Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him." Genesis 12:7, "And the LORD appeared unto Abram, . . ." John 1:18, "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, and so it gets a little tricky when we see the many manifestations of the pre-incarnate Christ and many dont grasp when He appeared or understand it fully. The pre-incarnate existence of Christ, and His pre-incarnate works, is important for several reasons. First, His preexistence is a necessary attribute to show who He was when He came as flesh. If Christ did not exist prior to His incarnation, then He cannot be God. Second, it is important that we have a firm understanding of the pre-incarnate Christ in order to discern what is false doctrine and what is the truth. Third, it gives the Christian a tremendous surety in whom their faith is and the Bible.

    So it is essential that the preexistence of Christ be understood and shown in order to prove His deity. Jesus is the Creator as we see, and He is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, Jehovah who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Well two things to note, first, everything made was via God's Son, John 1:3, Colossians 1:16-17. And the Son who is the very glory of God being the true light, John 1:9, Hebrews 1:3, ". . . Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; . . ." He the Son maintaining creation as the Creator even while He was suffering on the cross. ". . .when he had by himself purged our sins, . . ."

    BTW, it is not the modern nor current popular view that He is the Archangel Michael, Jehovah, Zechariah 3:2, Jude 1:9. The baptist preacher, John Gill held that view.
     
    #5 37818, Aug 9, 2020
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The name or title used is a hard truth to understand and even I still am going over it with some of my friends on the forums, but lets go over some of the points we have gone over on this issue.. We have these text of sayings directly from Christ:

    John 1:18 King James Version (KJV)
    No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

    John 5:37 King James Version (KJV)
    And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

    John 6:46 King James Version (KJV)
    Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

    John 14:9 King James Version (KJV)
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

    So we have something of a connundrum that's hard to understand as its clear that God the Father in His fullness of glory has been veiled or hidden from man, while the interacting agent dealing openly with man, was the pre-incarnate Christ. Lets go over some text:

    Genesis 1:26-27 King James Version (KJV)
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 3:8 King James Version (KJV)
    And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.

    Genesis 5:22 King James Version (KJV)
    And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:

    Genesis 5:24 King James Version (KJV)
    And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

    Genesis 6:9 King James Version (KJV)
    These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

    Genesis 17:1 King James Version (KJV)
    And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    So when we look, who is walking openly with Adam and Eve, Enoch, Noah and Abraham. And we have the following:

    Exodus 13:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
    And the Lord went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
    He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

    Exodus 16:10 King James Version (KJV)
    And it came to pass, as Aaron spake unto the whole congregation of the children of Israel, that they looked toward the wilderness, and, behold, the glory of the Lord appeared in the cloud.

    So we have a cloud which veiled the divinity, and yet Moses went into it

    Exodus 19:9 King James Version (KJV)
    And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

    Exodus 19:16 King James Version (KJV)
    And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.

    Exodus 24:15 King James Version (KJV)
    And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

    Exodus 24:16 King James Version (KJV)
    And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

    Exodus 24:18 King James Version (KJV)
    And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights.

    Exodus 33:9 King James Version (KJV)
    And it came to pass, as Moses entered into the tabernacle, the cloudy pillar descended, and stood at the door of the tabernacle, and the Lord talked with Moses.

    So we see a veiled divinity that even Moses asked to see:

    Exodus 33:18-23 King James Version (KJV)
    18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.
    19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.
    20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
    21 And the Lord said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
    22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
    23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    John 1:3 is regarding the Son/the Word, "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made." The Son is on behalf of the God is the cause of all acts of God being God. (John 5:19, ". . . Jesus . . . said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. . . ."
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus was never the archangel Michael!
     
  9. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    We clearly see Christ as the Creator, but then we have this:

    Matthew 11:27 King James Version (KJV)
    27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

    Here is where we see that Christ shows us the Father, but mortal man could not come and stand before the Father. even with Moses He was veiled with the cloud.

    Exodus 34:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
    1 And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.
    2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.
    3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.
    4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the Lord had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.
    5 And the Lord descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the Lord.
    6 And the Lord passed by before him, and proclaimed, The Lord, The Lord God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

    So we see that the Lord Himself told Moses that man could not be before the awesome glory that is God. Moses had asked to see God's glory and we see what he was told in in Exodus 34 verse 20, "And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.."

    This awesome glory presented a problem. If men could not live after seeing Him then how could Christ interact with mankind and as the Bible says no man has ever seen God the Father. The Father is spirit. No one has ever seen His face. We first have the appearance of God walking in the garden in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:8, but this was after sin so they would have died if they had come before God. But the fact is that God has been seen by men as we see Enoch and Noah both "walked with God". Then you have 'the Lord' appearing to Abraham in Genesis 18 as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and we know the many sins of Abraham, but yet he lived. So who have they seen?

    So we have to see how scripture clues us in, and the answer was that God placed Himself in veiled form when He came to the people, and it was Jesus Christ in pre-incarnate appearances. Here we have the following:

    Isaiah 6:1-5 King James Version (KJV)
    1 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    2 Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
    4 And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke.
    5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

    We see in Isaiah 6, Isaiah goes to the Temple to mourn the death of his king, and when Isaiah goes there he suddenly sees the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lifted up high and glorious in the Temple as the angels cry 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory'. Then we have Ezekiel:

    Ezekiel 1:26-28 King James Version (KJV)
    26 And above the firmament that was over their heads was the likeness of a throne, as the appearance of a sapphire stone: and upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man above upon it.
    27 And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about.
    28 As the appearance of the bow that is in the cloud in the day of rain, so was the appearance of the brightness round about. This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the Lord. And when I saw it, I fell upon my face, and I heard a voice of one that spake.

    Ezekiel also saw that "upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man upon it.... This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD .Then, over in the New Testament, we are told that when Isaiah saw the Lord lifted up high and holy he saw Jesus Christ. John 12:41 tells us that what Isaiah saw was Jesus in "His glory", the glory He had before He became incarnate (Philippians 2:5-8).

    Looking back at Abraham with the three men that visited him while he was at the tent door we find first, that the leader talked with Abraham. Then He inquired about Sarah and made a promise:

    Genesis 18:9-12 King James Version (KJV)
    "9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
    10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him
    a promise to Abraham. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
    12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

    Later, in Genesis 21:1-2, we are told who the leader is.
    "1 And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
    2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him."

    The One who spoke with Abraham at the tent, was the Lord Himself. But, because of her old age, Sarah had doubted and laughed at the Lord's promise. The Lord makes a clear promise with a time line in Genesis 18 and fulfilled in Genesis 21, here is His promise.

    Genesis 18:14 King James Version (KJV)
    14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.

    In Genesis 18:10, the central figure or leader of the men promised to return a year later. But, in verse 14, it makes it clear it is the Lord and He promised to return a year later. The leader and the Lord are one and he same. Now we have this.

    Genesis 18:16-17 King James Version (KJV)

    16 And the men rose up from thence, and looked toward Sodom: and Abraham went with them to bring them on the way.

    17 And the Lord said, Shall I hide from Abraham that thing which I do;


    Abraham was walking with the three men in the direction of Sodom when the leader (the Lord) spoke to him.

    "Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord" (v.22).

    There seems to be a problem. If the three men left for Sodom and the Lord remained with Abraham, is the Lord now appearing as a fourth person? Our answer is found in the first part of Genesis 19:1.
    "Now the two angels came to Sodom"

    If two angels went to Sodom, then the third angel (or man) remained with Abraham. The third angel was the pre-incarnate Son of God. Jesus did see Abraham as He declared in John 8:56-58.

    Then in Genesis 32:24-32 we find Jacob wrestling with a man all night, but it is not just a man. The passage does not tell us directly, but Jacob records that he recognized who it was. Jacob told this man that he would not let him go until he blessed him. The man asked him what his name was and Jacob told him. The man then said in Genesis 32:28 "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed." This passage directly says that it was God that Jacob wrestled with all night.

    The interesting part of the story is that Jacob clearly lets us know he recognized who he was wrestling with. He tells us in Genesis 32:30 that he saw God face to face, and yet his life was spared.

    Genesis 32:30 King James Version (KJV)
    30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
     
  10. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    So it becomes clear this is the pre-incarnate Christ who has been dealing in these face to face encounters with man. We also read that Christ in pre-incarnate also appears as what is called "the Angel of the Lord." That doesn't mean that Jesus is an angel, rather it means He is God's angel. This term means Jesus is a messenger of the Lord as angel means "messenger." We have this:

    Exodus 3:1-6 King James Version (KJV)
    1 Now Moses kept the flock of Jethro his father in law, the priest of Midian: and he led the flock to the backside of the desert, and came to the mountain of God, even to Horeb.
    2 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
    3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
    4 And when the Lord saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.
    5 And he said, Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground.
    6 Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

    When Moses saw the burning bush, God spoke to him out of the burning bush and told him take his shoes off as that was holy ground. Verse 2 says, "And who spoke to him was the Angel of the Lord." Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words in verse 6:

    "Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God."

    We also see, "the Angel of the Lord" who found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel, the Bible tells us.

    "And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

    The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God", but lets go on. When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him.

    "And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

    Judges 6:22 records, "When Gideon realized that it was the Angel of the Lord he exclaimed, 'O sovereign Lord, I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face,' but the Lord said to him, 'Peace do not be afraid you are not going to die.'" Gideon saw God incarnate, Jesus as the Angel of the Lord.

    We also see the Angel of the Lord as the pre-incarnate Son of God in Judges 13. It tells us that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Manoab's wife and promised her that she would conceive and give birth to a son. He gives the instructions for the son who is Samson, note what He says about the child being a Nazarite from the womb:

    Judges 13:3-6 King James Version (KJV)
    3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
    4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
    5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
    6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:

    The Angel of the Lord appeared a second time to Manoahâ's wife and she immediately called her husband:

    Judges 13:15-16 King James Version (KJV)
    15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
    16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord.

    Burnt offerings are to be presented to God only, and we see it was the Angel of the Lord. Then what Manoab asks and the answer given which is very interesting...:

    Judges 13:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
    17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
    18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

    Then the Angel of the Lord performed the wonders as described in verse 19 and 20:

    Judges 13:19-20 King James Version (KJV)
    19 So Manoah took a kid with a meat offering, and offered it upon a rock unto the Lord: and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.
    20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. And Manoah and his wife looked on it, and fell on their faces to the ground.

    So Manoah and his wife fell on their faces in worship to Him, and we know only God can be worshipped, but now Manoah tells us who the Angel of the Lord who performed wonders is

    Judges 13:21-22 King James Version (KJV)
    21 But the angel of the Lord did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the Lord.
    22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

    We also have the 'Son of God' appear and walk in the fiery furnace with Daniels three friends.

    Daniel 3:23-25 King James Version (KJV)
    23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
    24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
    25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

    Then In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses:

    Acts 7:37-38 King James Version (KJV)
    37 This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear.
    38 This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:

    The Angel which spake is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was "I Am." In the New Testament Christ identifies Himself as the great "I Am."
    John 8:58 King James Version (KJV)
    "58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM."

    Exodus 3:13-14 King James Version (KJV)
    13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
    14 And God said unto Moses, I Am That I Am: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I Am hath sent me unto you.

    Note what it has, 'And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.'

    Jesus Christ himself was telling the Jews that He was the angel in the burning bush speaking to Moses, and therefore was God. This the Jews understood, which is why they picked up rocks to stone him. It was the angel of the Lord within the burning bush who applied the title of I AM to himself, Christ applied the same title to himself.

    This Angel of the Lord that appeared was the pre-incarnate Christ, and shown as the Lord. But Christ is clearly not a created angelic being. The divinity of Christ is clearly spelled out in Scriptures. Hebrew the first chapter clearly differentiates between Jesus and those supernatural beings called angels:

    Hebrews 1:4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

    We need to see and hear what Gods Word unveils to us.
     
  11. Hobie

    Hobie Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2020
    Messages:
    1,066
    Likes Received:
    50
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Jesus is the Creator, but He also is Jehovah, this is very hard to understand even for me, but here is a good explanation...
    "What should we understand God's name, Jehovah, to mean? Strictly speaking, there is no such name as Jehovah. It occurred as a late medieval hybrid when students of the Hebrew Scriptures failed to understand that the Masoretic text had combined the vowels of Adonai, Lord, with the consonants YHWH (the divine name considered too sacred to pronounce). This name, considered today to have been originally pronounced Yahweh, is defined in Exodus 3:13, 14 as "I AM." By choosing this name, God identifies Himself as the Eternal, self-existing One—without beginning or end (see Ps. 90:2). Therefore, anyone without beginning or end would be entitled by the very nature of his being to the name of Jehovah.

    What evidence can we gather from Scripture that Jesus is Jehovah equally with the Father?

    One clue that will help you in your study of the name Jehovah (translated "Lord") is the manner in which it is printed in most English versions of the Old Testament. When the name "Lord" is translated from the Hebrew word Yahweh, i.e., Jehovah, it is printed in large and small capital letters like this: LORD. Other names of God that are translated "Lord" begin with a capital followed by lower-case letters. This contrast can be seen clearly in Isaiah 22:14 where the first occurrence (LORD) comes from Jehovah and the second (Lord) is from Adonai. Remember that this printer's clue is found only in the Old Testament. It is a good idea to check word derivations as well in a good comparative concordance such as Strong's or Young's.

    Jesus is Jehovah
    Notice, now, some comparisons of texts from the Old and New Testaments showing beyond a reasonable doubt that Jesus is indeed identified as Jehovah. These will be given in outline form so that the comparison will be more vivid.

    1. The precursor. "A voice cries: 'In the wilderness prepare the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God" (Isa. 40:3).*

    "He [John the Baptist] said, 'I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, "Make straight the way of the Lord," as the prophet Isaiah said'" (John 1:23).

    Certainly John knew the Hebrew of Isaiah's prophecy. When he claimed to be the "voice" of Isaiah's prediction, he was claiming to be preparing the way for Jehovah, who was in fact, Jesus.

    2. Jehovah the Creator. "Have you not known? Have you not heard? The LORD is the everlasting God, the Creator of the ends of the earth. He does not faint or grow weary, his understanding is unsearchable" (Isa. 40:28).

    "He [the Word, or Jesus] was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world knew him not" (John 1:10).

    The Creator of the world came into that world but was not accepted. If Jesus is not Jehovah, He is not the Creator. Further more, Isaiah calls the Creator the "ever lasting God." Jesus is the Eternal One, Jehovah.

    3. The glory. " 'I am the LORD, that is my name; my. glory I give to no other, nor my praise to graven images'" (Isa. 42:8).

    " 'And now, Father, glorify thou me in thy own presence with the glory which I had with thee before the world was made'" (John 17:5).

    As an obedient Son, would Jesus ask His Father for glory that Jehovah said He would never share? Or is Jesus entitled to that glory because He, too, is Jehovah— one with the Father?

    4. The Rock. " 'For 1 will proclaim the name of the LORD. Ascribe greatness to our God! The Rock, his work is perfect; for all his ways are justice'" (Deut. 32:3, 4).

    "For they [the fathers] drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ" (1 Cor. 10:4).

    Jehovah is declared to be the Rock. Paul declares the Rock was Christ. Thus Christ must unquestionably be Jehovah.

    5. The Shepherd. "The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not want" (Ps. 23:1).

    '"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep'" (John 10:11).

    Jehovah is the Shepherd, and Jesus applied this name to Himself in full knowledge of His own deity.

    6. The First and the Last. "Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god' " (Isa. 44:6).

    " 'Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end'" (Rev. 22:12, 13; cf. 1:17, 18).

    Jehovah says that He is the first and the last. The One who is coming quickly to give rewards (see Matt. 16:27) declares Himself to be the first and the last. The One who was dead and is now alive forevermore (see Rev. 1:17, 18) declares that He is the first and the last. There cannot be the slightest doubt that Jesus who died for us—the first and the last—is none other than Jehovah.

    7. Jesus' absolute, eternal deity. "'I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God'" (Isa. 45:5). " 'You are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any'" (chap. 44:8).

    "'I and the Father are one.' The Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, 'I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of these do you stone me?' The Jews answered him, 'It is not for a good work that we stone you but for blasphemy; because you, being a man, make yourself God'" (John 10:30- 33).

    Jehovah categorically declares there is no God but Him. He denies the very teaching of the Jehovah's Witnesses that Jehovah is the God, but that Jesus is a god.

    When Jesus said that He and His Father are one, He made the greatest claim anyone could make. The Jews understood His claim. To their mind, there was only one God, and His name was Jehovah. Jesus clearly claimed to be that God, and they determined to stone Him.

    8. The Saviour. " 'For I am the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior. ... I, I am the LORD, and besides me there is no savior'" (Isa. 43:3-11).

    "'There is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved'" (Acts 4:12).

    These texts declare that Jehovah alone is Saviour. If Jesus is not Jehovah, we have no Saviour. Note also that the Son of the virgin is given His name by an angel (see Matt. 1:21). The name Jesus means "Jehovah saves."

    Isaiah becomes, therefore, a bulwark of trinitarianism. He is the great Messianic prophet, exalting the coming Messiah as Jehovah, not once or twice, but repeatedly. There is overwhelming evidence for the open mind that Jesus is Jehovah."...Is Jesus Jehovah God?
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Angel of the Lord was indeed preincarnate Christ, but was NOT Michael!
     
  13. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Based on what?
    BTW Baptist preacher John Gill thought so, see his commentary on Jude 1:9.
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Believe Calvin did also, but both were wrong!
     
  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    How do you know Michael is not that Angel of the LORD?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    9,113
    Likes Received:
    737
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That did not anwser the question. Why do you deny Michael is the Angel of the LORD?
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Michael was always said to be an Angel, arch one, never the Angel of the Lord!
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,652
    Likes Received:
    2,745
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Angel of the Lord in OT spoke as God Himself, Michael never did, as he would not rebuke satan but appeal to the Lord to do that!
     
  19. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,914
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Correct!
    Adonai Yeshuah is way above the angels. Angels were created by Adonai Yeshuah !
    Arch Angel Michael is a creature but Pre-Incarnate Christ is the Creator of all creatures.

    Eliyahu
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2005
    Messages:
    4,914
    Likes Received:
    14
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is another verse related to this issue:

    Genesis 19:24

    19:24 וַֽיהוָה הִמְטִיר עַל־סְדֹם וְעַל־עֲמֹרָה

    גָּפְרִית וָאֵשׁ מֵאֵת יְהוָה מִן־הַשָּׁמָֽיִם׃

    Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah

    brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven (KJV)

    Jehovah on the Earth rained down the brimstone and fire from Jehovah in the heaven.

    Jehovah on the Earth was Pre-Incarnate Christ and Jehovah in the Heaven was God the Father.

    J.N. Darby said :

    To me, it is as clear as the Sun at the noon time that Jesus Christ is Jehovah in the old testament.

    Me too.

    Eliyahu
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...