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The question Calvinists can't seem to answer

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by Skandelon, Jun 19, 2004.

  1. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I agree that we can't speak with any real certainity about these matters because frankly the scripture is not that clear.

    Adam Clarke's explaintion seems much more plausiable to me though:

     
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I can't help but be reminded of this section of Bondage of the Will, where Luther answer many (if not all and more) of the same free will arguments raised here repeatedly. This section addresses the notion that God's longsuffering is what leads to men hardening their own hearts, and God has mercy by afflicting the sinner in order to lead him to repentence. </font>[/QUOTE]That has nothing to do with the arguements concerning hardening that I have raised repeatedly on this board Nick. You should know that by now. I don't reject the idea that God actively hardens some people. Also, if you or Martin Luther have a problem with God having mercy by afflicting/hardening the sinner in order to lead him to repentance you need to take that up with the scripture. Here is what it says:

    That sounds like afflicting the Jews could indeed be merciful as some could be saved as a result. It didn't seem that Luther was dealing with that arguement at all, was he?
     
  3. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Skandelon quotes Adam Clarke
    Verse 26. And so all Israel shall be saved] Shall be brought into the way of salvation, by acknowledging the Messiah; for the word certainly does not mean eternal glory; for no man can conceive that a time will ever come in which every Jew then living, shall be taken to the kingdom of glory. The term saved, as applied to the Israelites in different parts of the Scripture, signifies no more than their being gathered out of the nations of the world, separated to God, and possessed of the high privilege of being his peculiar people. And we know that this is the meaning of the term, by finding it applied to the body of the Israelites when this alone was the sum of their state. See the Preface, page viii, &c.

    A sad but typical ignorance of the glory of the gospel on Clarke's part. He reverts to OC understanding of 'saved'; holding Israel to earthly prosperity rather than eternal joy. It is all to escape the horrible Calvinistic conclusion that God will save whom He likes, when He likes.

    I asked Ray Berrian before, but it was unanswered. Clarke tries to make an attempt here when he says, for no man can conceive that a time will ever come in which every Jew then living, shall be taken to the kingdom of glory.

    Here's my question:
    I completely agree, all Israel shall be saved. You know what that proves, Ray? If you believe in free-will, it proves that God is a lucky fellow. Imagine, all of those Jews at a certain moment in history, simultaneously coming to faith in Christ! What are the odds?
    However, if you believe in the sovereignty of God in salvation, then there was never any doubt about it. When He chose to, all Israel would be saved.
    What sort of God is displayed in Scripture - the God of a lucky break, or the One of Whom it is said, 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me'?

    Maybe you can answer, Skan?

    In Him

    Ian
     
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I don't believe as Ray does, that every Jew on earth at that time will be saved (if that is what he said). I believe that either "Israel" has been redefined by Paul to mean all who are children of the promise through faith OR as Adam Clarke has explained here. I am not certain which of these options is correct but I do believe both are possible.

    The "more Calvinistic" possiblity is also viable. I have always believed that God sovereignly intervened in the lives of those Jews set apart to be divine messengers, such as Paul on the road to Damascus. Sometimes God does "go out of his way" to seal ones redemption by doing what is necessary to convince them of his truth. Thomas is another example of that. Christ could have left him doubting, but He decided to SHOW him because that is what was necessary for him to believe. That is God's perogative, but its certainly not required.

    Blessed are those who don't see and still believe.
     
  5. Ian Major

    Ian Major New Member

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    Skandelon said
    I don't believe as Ray does, that every Jew on earth at that time will be saved (if that is what he said). I believe that either "Israel" has been redefined by Paul to mean all who are children of the promise through faith OR as Adam Clarke has explained here. I am not certain which of these options is correct but I do believe both are possible.

    Your views are consistent with your theology. I disagree with them, but see how you can hold them. It is those who hold to ALL Israel being saved yet try to avoid God's sovereignty in salvation that I am challenging.

    The "more Calvinistic" possiblity is also viable. I have always believed that God sovereignly intervened in the lives of those Jews set apart to be divine messengers, such as Paul on the road to Damascus. Sometimes God does "go out of his way" to seal ones redemption by doing what is necessary to convince them of his truth. Thomas is another example of that. Christ could have left him doubting, but He decided to SHOW him because that is what was necessary for him to believe. That is God's perogative, but its certainly not required.

    You're a naughty semi-Calvinist amongst Arminian sheep. ;)

    In Him

    Ian
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    [​IMG]

    If you read Jacob Arminius you would think he sounds pretty Calvinistic too, at least compared to most "Arminians" today.
     
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