The Questionable Pretrib Rapture - Part 2

Tim too: 2. Signs in the heavens. There are two major signs that accompany
the return of the Lord. After these signs Jesus said He would send
His angels into the four corners of the world to gather
His elect. (Isai 13:9-11, Joel 2:31, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-28,
Lk 21:25-28, Acts 2:20-21, Rev 6:12)

This seems like a really strange collection of verses.
Why one would abandon the Biblical Pretribulation Rapture position
over such a collection of beats me. But i've seen weirder stuff
Did you know that Acts 2:20-21 is the fulfillment of the
prophecy of Joel 2:31? How do you relate already fulfilled prophecy
to yet to be fulfilled prophecy? Or are you one of those
preterists who think nearly all the New Testament prophecy has
already been fulfilled?

Gernerally in the Old Testament, they see the coming of Messiah
as a ONE TIME event. But now we know that it is a two time event:
1) as a babe in a manger to die on a cross (33 years)
2) as Savior, Lord and King (7 years)

But some would say that we aught to limit God to one each
24-hour day in which He will do all His coming.
The Holy Bible teaches a two prong second event:
2a) come as Savior
2b) come as Lord and King.
These events are one prophetic day apart (7 earth years).

 

Or are you one of those preterists who think nearly all the New Testament prophecy has already been fulfilled?

You make it sound so "dirty".

 

My bad. I rephrase:
Or are you one of those clean preterists
who think nearly all the New Testament
prophecy has already been fulfilled?

 

Someone said that Matthew 24:15-31 matches
with Revelation 6:1-7:17 (well, except the Lord's
Mount Olivet Discourse doesn't mention
the 144,000).

To me this smacks of the 7-cycles of Revelation.
I beleive Revelation to be largely linear -
from start to finish with but a few summaries
and flashbacks and flashforwards. But some
beleive that there are 7-cycles in Revelation,
that is, the Tribualtion and Second Coming are
told 7 times, 7 different ways. Here is one
of those 7-cycle schems (i don't believe a word
of it):

Cycle 1. Revelation 6:1-8:1
Cycle 2. Revelation 8:65-10:7
Cycle 3. Revelation 11
Cycle 4. Revelation 12-14
Cycle 5. Revelation 16
Cycle 6. Revelation 17-19
Cycle 7. Revelation 20-22

I believe Revelation 4-19 speaks of the
Tribulation Period; Revelation 20-22
speaks of after the Tribulation Period.

 

LET IT DIE

 

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God.

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
WHO: the nations: the living survivers of the Great Tribulation
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed to Hell; the blessed to the Millennial Age

5. Great White Throne judgement
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

I love it, Ed. Let's see, I think one could sum up your view as containing seven years of tribulation, six resurrections, five judgements, four types of wrath, three secret raptures, two visible comings and a partridge in a pear tree.

 

Actually it is more like: seven years of tribulation,
six resurrections, five judgements,
four types of wrath, three secret raptures,
two visible comings and
a Savior hung in a tree.

 

What? There's only one crucifixion in your theology?

 

Actually the Romans crucified millions
of people. But only one of them
came back from the dead: One Jesus BenJoseph
of Nazareth. Jesus is my
one and only Lord and Savior!

 

The last one to post wins -- right?

 

Well, at least you're honest about your motives.

 

I looked in the back of the book --
God Wins!!!

 

Ed,

That was your own logical to given 5 different types of tribulations.

The Bible does not support your logical.

There is no difference between 'tribulation' and 'great tribulation' of Matt 24:21. Both are same definition.

The Bible never promise us that we will escapse from tribulions and persecutions.

Early Church already suffer many terrible persecutions under Rome. Many Christians were thrown into Colossuem, eaten by wild beasts to death. Thousands of Christians were beheaded.

Thousands of Christians were persecute by Catholics during Spnish Inquision era.

Throughout many centuries, many Christians have been persecuted for thier faith.

Are we better than them?

Why does God allow His Bride having suffer persecutions throughout centuries even to present and will be continue future till Christ comes?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

[ September 29, 2003, 12:15 PM: Message edited by: DeafPosttrib ]

 

Ed,

At Part One, you say:

Please show us where verse to support your logical.

You say,

Rev. 4:1 does not mentioned on gathering together, descend of Jesus Christ, and the coming of Christ. Nothing at all.

Rev. 4:1 speaks of John himself experince in his own VISION - revelation. Do nothing with the gathering together of the saints or Church.

You say,

Please show us where verse support your logical.

The Bible does not support your logical.

Matt 24:29-31 tell us, we as ELECT shall be gathering together immediately AFTER tribulation.

Also, throughout the book of Revelation never saying all saints are ONLY JEWS. The book of Revelation was given message to the CHURCHES, that all things must come to pass - Rev. 22:16.

Church is both Jews and Gentiles Believers.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Ed,

Also, please show us WHERE a verse saying the gathering together of the saints wil be occur 3 1/2 o 7 years earlier BEFORE the second advent???

 

There is no such verse. The pre-trib rapture lives only in the imagination of those who add fiction and poetry to scripture in order to arrive at that conclusion. The pre-trib analysis always sounds like: "You have to ignore the plain meaning of the text, forget about the chronology, rearrange the events, turn the Bible sideways, take every seventh letter, take the numeric value of the letter, add 20 and transpose it into Hebrew, and then it spells out the pre-trib rapture for everyone to see!"

One of my favorite fanciful arguments is that the word "church" does not appear in Revelation after chapter 4, which "means" the church will not be present in the rest of the prophecy described in Revelation. I notice the words "porterhouse steak" aren't mentioned anywhere in Revelation at all. I guess that means all porterhouse steaks will be raptured before ANY of the events in Revelation occur. I sure hope I'm raptured along with those porterhouse steaks, because I love 'em.

 

The word for today is EXTRAPOLATE

extrapolate - 1. Statistics to estimate
or infer (a value, quanity, etc. beyond the
known range) on the basis of certain variables
within the know range, from which the estimated value
is assumed to follow.
2. To arrive at (conclusions or results) by
hypothesizing consequences on the basis of (known facts
or observations)

Example: "Who will populate the Millennial Kingdom?"
The Bible mentions a Millennia, a physical kingdom
of Christ, and events prior to and after the
Millennium. The Bible does not directly answer this
question. However, it can be deduced. I think the
secret is in Matthew 25:31-46: the sheep and goat judgement.
I belive that Jesus, after the Tribulation Period
but before the MK = Millennial Kingdom, is set up
will judge the surviving nations according to how they
treated the Israeli among them. The goat nations
will "go to hell, do not pass go"; the sheep nations
will pouplate the MK. But all the details are outside
the envelope of the Bible, i.e. the details are
extrapolated. So i can sit around comparing my
hypothesizing with the hypothesizing of other servants
of Jesus.

Quite frankly though, if someone does not believe the
MK is to be physical (not spiritual) reality,
they cannot comprehend my extrapolation.

 

DeafPosttrib: Ed, ...
That was your own logical to given 5 different types of tribulations.
The Bible does not support your logical."

Your opinion is noted (again). Someday you will
understand my occasional snit when you say things
like that against the summary of 35 years of my life.