The rapture

Good night Ed.

 

Oooops! I accidented to making post while I am not finish type on this post.

But, Lord's coming will come to end this age.

Matthew chapter 24 tells us, that we are in the last days in this age. This age shall be finally end by the coming of Christ with his angels - Matt 24:29-31.

No excuse for pretribbers can reading scripture telling us very clear Christ is coming - once.

Even early Christians understood the Bible tells them, Christ will come again - one coming at the end of the age. They believed the only ONE future coming of Christ. Early Christians never hear of the doctrine - two phases of the second coming or split comings. That doctrine was not yet exist throughout in the first of 18 Centuries. Till 19th Centuries, two phases of the second coming was developed by John N. Darby. Many Churches adopted Darby's new teaching.

There is no scripture support the idea teaching of two phases of the second advent.

Simple look at example of Acts 1:9-11 telling us, Christ left Mt. Olivet, asecnd into the heaven, as the Disciples SAW Him ascended. The two angels appeared in the midst of them, ask them, why they stare up, Christ shall come again in the SAME WAY as he went up.

Zech. 14:4 tells us, Christ shall finally touch on Mt. Olivet first time that is the second coming - ONE coming.

None find anywhere in the Bible saying Christ shall come like as 'yo-yo's'

Bible teaches us, Christ goes UP - one time, Christ goes DOWN- ONE time.

1 Thess 4:16 says, Christ shall DESCEND from heaven. Descend means DOWN. 1 Thess 4:16-17 do not saying Christ shall return UP into heaven again.

I ask you, can you READ Matt. 24:13, what it talking about??? I ask you, what the word, 'endure' means? I ask you, what the word, 'unto the end' means?

I sure that you understand Matt 24:13 without make any excuse.

Tell me, what Matt 24:13 is talking about?

Many posttribbers understand what Matt 24:13 talk about.

Matt. 24:13 tells us, that we should be patience and abide while suffering persecutions (context with Matt 24:9-11). Notice Matt 24:12 tells us, many elects shall increasing sin and forsake from the Lord. Christ commands us, that we HAVE TO BE ENDURE TILLLLLLLLLL the end THEN shall be SAVED. Means, we have to be faithful and be patience till death or Christ comes, then will have victory and be saved same with Rev. 2:10. Too many Christians already falling away, and stopped endure for Christ, they became lost(read Luke 15:11-32).

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPostTrib: //I ask you, can you READ Matt. 24:13,
what it talking about??? I ask you, what the word,
'endure' means? I ask you, what the word, 'unto the end' means?//

What it says is very clear: "those who endure to the
end will be saved".
What it does not say is not very clear:
"those who endure NOT to the end will NOT be saved".

Recall the penalty to adding to the word of God,
it is specified in Revealtion 22:18
Putting those nots in there is ADDING TO GOD's WORDs.
We don't know from Matthew 24:13 by itself
what is the fate of those who endure not.

BTW, 'endure" means to last or perservere.
I used to say to my friends: "hang in there"
only that can be misunderstood to be the
noose kind of hanging not the perserverence
kind. So now i'm more likely to say "perservere".

 

DeafPostTrib: "You discuss on Rev. 20:4 that you interpreting it into two groups. If so, thet God have two families? In another word, we have two different Gods? Or two different Jesus?"

You use the same logic as those who say one God, one Jesus,
one Bible (the KJV1769).

Yes, God does have two elect:
1. the church age born-again redeemed Christians elect saints
2. the Jewish Israeli elect saints
Note that these two group exist as DIFFERENT TIMES.
Right now a Jewish Israeli who believes that Jesus is Messiah
is part of group one.

Yes, God does have two groups of saints:
1. the church age born-again redeemed Christians elect saints
2. the Jewish Israeli elect saints
Note that these two group exist as DIFFERENT TIMES.

 

Brumleyj: "2 cor 5:10 is telling us we wil all
face judgement at second advent after following
rapture and resurrection,"

2 Cor 5:10 says nothing about when, that comes
from somewhere else in the Bible.
2 Cor 5:10 says nothing about the Second Advent,
that comes from somewhere else in the Bible.
2 Cor 5:10 says nothing about the rapture/resurrection.

2 Cor 5:10 says we all must stand before Jesus
to be judged. This is for the saved only.
In the Greek this is called the Bema Seat, the awards
ceremony. Called here the "Judgement Seat".
The Judgement Seat of Christ will be held
in heaven during the 7-year Tribulation Period on
earth. It is the awards ceremony that we should
be looking forward to. In this awards ceremony
some of us will be selected for special service to Jesus
during the physical 1,000 year long reign of Jesus
on the Earth after the Tribulation Period.

 

Ed,

I add nothing unto the Word of God. I understand what the Bible saying. my interpreting Matt 24:13 differently as what you intepreting Matt 24:13. Does not mean that I ADD or TAKE OUT word from the Bible. I leave all words in the Bible, what God says, I honor all scriptures in the Bible. Bible is Holy words. I fear of God with humble and respect. I won't add or take word out of the Bible. I follow all words of God 100%, I agree 100% with the Bible, what it says.

Endure means, to remain, to abide, to bear under suffer, patience, longsuffering

2 Thess.1-4 - "So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your PATIENCE and FAITH in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS and TRIBULATION THAT YOU ENDURE." Paul tells us, that we should be patience, bearing with under suffer as we endure with it.

Same with Rev. 2:10 "Fear none of those things which thou shalt SUFFER: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be TRIED; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH, and I will give the a crown of life."

Christ knew the church of Smyrna was suffering under persecutions during John's time, some of the church of Smyrna were cast into prison, suffering with persecution endure till their death. Not only church of Smyrna, also, many Christians in the past were suffering with endure till their death.

While Christians were suffering, Catholic force them to worship Mary or Pope or convert to Catholic, oftne they called them, 'heretic'. Many Christians said to them while suffering, "I refuse deny Jesus is the Lord." If a person make confess to catholic, to deny Christ, then Christ would deny person - 1 Tim. 2:12.

Notice Paul says "THerefore I ENDURE all things for the elect's sake that they also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory." - 2 Tim. 2:10. Paul tells us, he have to be endure while bear the gospel of Christ to people, that they may receive salvation of Lord Jesus Christ. Because he was persecuted, beated with stripped, cast into prison, stoned , etc.. They tried to foce Paul to stop preaching the gospel. Paul stubborned, refuse give up preaching the gospel. He endures with it till his death.

Look above to 2 Tim. 2:3 says, "Thou therefore ENDURE HARDNESS AS A GOOD SOLDIER OF JESUS CHRIST." Clearly, it tells us, we should be faithful wiht patience be tough like soldier of Christ. Traditional tells us, that apostle Paul was a short man. But he was tough man, he suffered through many trials and persecutions that he endure with them.

Christ tells us, that we should be endure with them till the end, THEN, shall be saved - Matt 10:22 and Matt 24:13.

If we decide to quit give up with persecutions then back to world again and enjoy fellowship with unbelievers, then shall not be saved.

The context of Matt 24:9-13 telling us, that we have to be endure all the way to death or Christ comes, because many Christians shall be killed, many Christians shall fall into sins and forsake from the Lord, that why Christ urges us to be endure till the end , the same shall be saved.

Many Christians in America prefer rapture first, do not want go through tribulation, because they dislike hear persecutions. ell, that what Christ suffered for. We should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter. 2:21.

Pretrib/disp teaches there are two elects.

Bible does not teaching that.

Many pretribbers know that we are God's elect. Elect means chosen, God chosen us through the salvation of Jesus Christ. - Eph. 1:4,5- that we should be blameless and be holy for the Lord . 1 Peter 1:2 tells us, we are elect by through God's foreknowledge, that we are sanctification of the Spirit , unto obey, and forgived through Christ's blood.

Gal. 3:14 tells us, the promise of Abraham shall bring unto Gentiles receive the promise of Spirit through Jesus Christ by the FAITH.

All O.T. saints were saved by the faith through Jesus Christ, the same we are saved by the faith through in Jesus Christ today. Nothing change plan of salvation.

Gal. 3:26 tells us, we are ALLLLLLL children of God by FAITH in Jesus Christ. That means, all O.T. saints and N.T. saints are children of God by faith on Jesus Christ. Both are God's elect. Both are ONE FAMILY ONE ELECT.

Eph. 2:12-16 tell us, that we(Gentiles) were alien, stranger, separate from the commonwaelth of Isreal, but NOW, we are bring into reconile with Jews into ONE by Calvary. Eph. 2:14 tells us, that Christ broken the wall down between Gentiles and Jews, biring both unity together into ONE BODY of Christ.

Nothing else saying that God shall focus on Israel after the rapture. We are now one family, one elect throughout all ages till the end of the age or world.

No more divided between Jew and Gentile after the result of Calvary. Now both are untiy together forever and ever.

Clear, Bible teaching us that we are God's elect through Jesus Christ- one family. We all have ONE Father in heaven. God owns one family in heaven, these whosever have faith on Christ, all belong to God's.

Simple, no complex.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Pretrib teaches there will be three judgment days - 1. judgement seat of Christ 2. judgment of nations 3. great white throne.

BIble does not saying three judgment days. Bible teaches us only ONE judgement day.

Judgement day shall be begin follow the coming of Christ WITH his angels.

Matt 16:27 tells us, Christ shall come with his agels to give rewards to people according to their works.

Rev. 11:18 tells us, Christ shall give rewards to saints after the seventh trumpet blown - Rev. 11:15.

Rev. 22:12 tells us, Christ shall come again, bring rewards with him to given to people accordign their works shall be.

Obivous, Bible teaches us, the judgement day follow the coming of Christ with his angels. Judgement day shall be begin at the second coming.

Judgement seat of Christ is same as great white throne. Both are no difference.

2 Tim. 4:1 tels us, Christ shall judge both quick and dead AT his appearing. Quick represents believers, dead represents unbelievers. Clear, 2 Tim. 4:1 telling us, there is only ONE judgement day at the second coming.

Berma means throne, not rewards.

Matt 25:31-46 tells us that Christ shall set upon the bema at his coming with his angels. Same with Rev. 20:11-15 tells us, Christ shall set upon the bema to judge all people.

Same with 2 Cor. 5:10.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

i argee with deafposttrib about last day of judgment at second adevent preach it amem ed edward please see rapture hocus topics.

jbrumley
ps 27:1
amem

 

I read all scriptures in the New Testament, I agree everything in the New Testament teaching us about the coming of Chrust. I have no problem with them I agree and accept what God's Word saying so.

Pretribbers always saying, 'this is pretrib', 'this is posttrib'. They trying to make any attempt to intepreting any verses on the coming of Christ in strange ways, not what these verses saying. They just interpreting verses into twist and other way, not what these verses talk about.

For example - Acts 1:9-11 clear telling us, two angels told them, they saw Christ ascend into the clouds, SO, he shall come again in the SAME way - ONE future coming, not two comings like as 'yo-yo's'. Pretribbers know that. Yet, they intepreting verse in different ways.

Oh come on! Bible teaching us the simple and plain, we have to accpet the facts what the Bible saying so. Why can't you accept the facts what the Bible sayng so?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Interesting, teh Hope of the Pretribulation
Rapture is to complex.
Going into the despair of Hell On Earth
(AKA the Tribulation Period) is simple?

 

DeafPostTrib says: "Why can't you accept the facts what the Bible sayng so?"

Ed see DPT say: "Why can't you
accept the understanding that i have of the Bible?"

Buddists have spent Billions of dollars
in the last 25 years on public relations
trying to convince the USofA citizenes
that Buddists are calm, innocent peopole.
However, these sweet little people
wiped Christianity out of Japan
in the late 1400s (about 1480).
They had to kill some ½-million
Japaneese Christians. The favorite method
the simple Buddists had to kill them is
to hang them by a rope so they can't
touch the ground, upside down. At
the northern lattitude of Japan even
in the summer there is little need for water
so the victums starge to death in
20-30 days. The lucky ones drown in
their own urine on the 4th or 5th day.

Have a nice Tribulation Period.

 

Understanding the little "t" tribulation,
a suppressed human condition and the
Tribulation Period, a period of time
beween the Church Age and the
Millinnial Kingdom Age.

--------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, afliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition
WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointements,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity,
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's explusion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom A CONDITION
WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millinnial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles a condition
WHO: Yisrael dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, athiests, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist
WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompence in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:

 

Ed,

There is no difference between of your own 5 different kinds of tribulations in your logical from the Bible.

There are many different varities of tribulations, some are heavy, some are light, some are moderate, some are horrible, etc.

In the past history, thousands of Christians were thrown into Colosseum, killed by eaten from wild beasts.

Thousands of Christians were beheaded in the past for their testimony.

Thousands of Christians were persecuted and killed by Catholic during Spanish Inquistion Era

Thousands of Christians were killed by soldiers in Russia during Communism time.

Thousands of Christians are continue suffering persecutions in China, while it is still Communism.

Thousands of Christians are continue suffering persecutions under Muslims in their countries, mostly in Middle East today.

Amd more......

Late Corrie ten Boom warns us, America will be the next last country to face the coming terrible persecutions. I am 100% agree with her. She strongly disagree pretrib. Because she survived Holocaust period. She protected many Jews hide in her house from Nazi soldiers try to find them. She was later captured, she thrown into concentration camp with Jews. She suffered there. But she was filled with joyful and praise. Even she witnessed Jews to Christ.

I respect her very well.

Aren't we better than martyrers in the past??

Many pretribbers in America hate to hear persecution, they prefer want rapture first. They do not want go to through tribulation to face perscutions. They are living in comfortable. And they rest on the rose bed.

Where is their faith? - Matt 10:28.

Once persecution hit America many Christians might be shake with their faith.

My friend told me, a true story, no joke, it's serious. Two deacons of the church, decided to dress into black clothes, putted black mask, and bring machine guns into church. Because they tested members, to see what their faith are. When during church service time. Two deacons suddenly enter the auditorium with machine guns, most of the congregation were very scare and panic, they ran away, or duck under the pews. Two deacons yelled, "Deny your Lord!" There was only FEW members still sit and peace on the pews. Two decons walked to the puplit, and asked pastor, where is their faith?

See? Many Christians are not ready for face the coming perscutions in America.

ONe day, Christians in America will face a big trial.

Matt. 13:20-21 warn, "But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that HEARETH the word, and anon(immediate, once) with JOY RECEIVETH it.Yet hath he NOT ROOT in himself, but endureth for a WHILE: for WHEN tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by HE IS OFFENED." It telling us, if any person who hear the gospel, glad believd and received it with joy, and person endure it, BUT for a short time, when the tribulation, persecution come upon that person, it caused person to STUMBLE!!!!

I would not be surprise, when the persecution hit America, many Christians might be offended and stumble - falling away.

Luke 8:13 warns us, "They on the rock are they which, when they HEAR, RECEIVE the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a WHILE believe, and in time of temptation FALL AWAY."

It tells us, any person who hear the gospel, receive and believe on the gospel, but person do not have spiritual foundation, a person believd the gospel for a SHORT TIME, when the time of temptation come unot this person, then FALL AWAY.

I would not be surprise, when the persecution hits America, many Christians might fall away.

There is NO difference between of 5 kinds of tribulations, all of these varities are SAME definition word.

Why shall we have tribulations and persecutions? Because Jesus Christ suffered on the cross for us, so, therefore, we should follow Christ's example - 1 Peter 2:21.

Are you willing to be suffering for Christ, what if persecution hit upon you now?

Are you ready to die now, what if a person about to shot you?

Are you ready to face, when a Police or soldier enter into your house, force you to receive the mark of the beast - now?

Think about Jesus Christ, how so MUCH He suffered for us.

Matt 10:28 tells us, that we do NOT fear of any person going to kill you, fear God.

Yes, we will go through MUCH TRIBULATION - Acts 14:22.

Are you ready to face tribulation - now?

Think about it.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

DeafPostTrib: "Pretrib/disp tesaches
that there are two elects."

Wrong. Ed's pretrib/dispy teachers
it. Ed gets his teaching
from the HOly BIble under the guidance of
the Holy Spirit. Ed does not get it from
Millionare books writers or Chick comics.
The Bible teaches it.

1. In the Age from the return from the Babaylon
Captivity to the birth of Jesus, the
only elect saints were Jewish Israeli elect saints.

2. In the age (this present age) from the resurrection
of Jesus to the pretrib resurrectin/rapture
of the Church Age elect saints -- in this age
there is one group: the chruch age born-again redeemed
Christian elect saints.
AT the pretibulation rapture color them GONE.

3. In the Next age (you know, the ones the a-mill posties
ignore), the Literal Physical reign of a
physical Jesus on the physical throne of David
in a physical Jerusalem -- in that age
there will be one goup of elect saints: the union
of groups of 1 and 2 above.

Each time during each of three ages thre is one and
only one goup of elect saints. In all three ages
as a whole there are two groups of elect saints.

 

Pretrib misinterpreting Jer. 30:7 - 'Jacob's trouble' - seven years of tribulation period for Israel.

Not what Jer. 30:7 really talk about.

You have to read the context with Jeremiah chapter 29 and 30 talking about Jeremiah warned to Israel, if they do not repent thier sins, God will send punish upon Israel. Later, Jeremiah's warning was fulfilled, that God allowed Babylon invaded Jerusalem, captured many Jews, and brought them into captivity for 70 years. That why Jer. 30:7 called it, 'Jacob's trouble' because, in that day, Babylon invaded Jerusalem, destroyed Solomon Temple, killed many Jews, took them into captivity to Babylon. Then, 70 years later, Jews were finally freed from the captivity fulfilled Jer. 30:7 about 2500 years ago.

We do not wait for Jer. 30:7 yet to be fulfilled when tribulation period hits. It already fulfilled 2500 years ago.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

The Who, What, When, Where, Whys are different.
You say there is no difference. Your statemnt
is so ludicrous.

DeafPostTrib: "There is no difference between of your
own 5 different kinds of tribulations in your logical from the Bible."

BTW, i have a better source of the actual numbers of
Christian Marytrs than you have.

I can't believe you dismiss my years of research
into Biblical meaning of "tribuation" with such
a symplistic "There is no difference between of your
own 5 different kinds of tribulations in your
logical from the Bible."
Nobody is going to believe your trivial
dismissal of my arguments.


DeafPostTrib: "Aren't we better than martyrers in the past??"

You disrepute me. I've never said (and there are lots
of my sayings here in the Theology Forum mostsly to check)
anybody deserves to be raptured. The pretribulation rapture is
part of GOd's eternal plan to bring a maximum number of
human people into the eternal Kingdom of God.

DeafPostTrib: "Once persecution hit America many Christians
might be shake with their faith."

There you go with your gloomy doubt about your fellow
Christians. Come one, few may make the narrow way,
but few is 10-40% NOT 1 or 2 in a million. Get real dude.

 

Ed,

Let you know, in the first of about 1,300 years since Creation to flood, the seed descendent from Eve, whosever have faith in Christ, they were NOT Jew. Aren't they belong to God's elect?

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Rahab, these were written down in the Hebrews chapter 11, they were NOT Jew, Yet they FAITH in the Lord, they are counted into righteousness, aren't they belogn to God's elect?

How about people of Nineveh - 120,000 were repented during Jonah's time? They were NOT Jew. Aren't they belong to God's elect?

Elect does not limited to Jews only. Elect is both Jew and Gentile whoseever have FAITH upon Jesus Christ, they are the children of God - Gal. 3:26.

Eph. 1:4 and 1 Peter 2:1 tells us, that we are God's elect, because we believed in Jesus Christ and washed by the blood of Christ.

I tell you, know why Abraham was not Jew in the first place. Because, Abraham was born as Gentile. Then 70 years later Abraham was called by God. Abraham decided followed God, and apart from the idols, and walking holy and worshipped the only One God. Egyptians noticed Abraham, he is much different from Egyptians and another heathens, that why Egyptians called him, "Hebrews".

There is no difference between Jew and Gentile people in the Lord's sight.

Romans 3:10 tells us, all Jews and Gentiles are no perfect, no, not one. Romans 10:12 tells us, there is no difference between Jew and Gentile, the same Lord over all(Jew & Gentile) whosoever shall call upon him.

Bible teaches us, both Jew and Gentile are God's elect, whosever have FAITH upon Christ, they are ONE family of God, ONE elect.

Simple, no complex.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

They are not elect saints. They were
savied from destruction in the days of
Jonah. They died like many othe people
of the gentiles at the end of their
time on earth. The City of Nineveh was
not destroyed (hense "saved") not eternally
saved as are we.

 

Ed,

I do not telling lies, I telling you the truths with the verses from the Bible. Acts 14:22 tells us, we MUST GO MUCH MUCH TRIBULATION

There is no difference between of any kinds of varities tribulations, all are the same definition.

So what? Cannot you learn the lesson from marytrs in the past, so, that we must be prepared for it? Have you yet read book - 'Foxes's Book of Martyrs' by John Foxe yet? That book mentioned true stories about horrible bloody persecution upon countless of Christians during Middle Age or Spanish Inquistion.

What is the compare between the conditional of Christian living in America and their conditional living during Spanish Inquistion Era?

Is this conditional living in America worser than their time?

Matt. 24:15-22 warn us, there shall be a GREAT tribulation, no one see it before during earth history to now and then. It will be much worser than their time, when Antichrist revealed, he will order his army to invade Christians' home, persecute them to death, it will be horrible times for the Christians. It could be happening in America one day.

We better be preparing for it.

Again, I keeping telling you, there is NO difference between of varities kinds of tribulations, all are same definition.

"The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, NAY, lest(not let) while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. LET both GROW TOGETHER UNTILLLLLLL THE HARVEST: and in the TIME of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." - Matt. 13:28b-30

Christ tells us, the servants ask their master, should we go ahead gathering tares, the master tell them, NO, leave tares, let BOTH tares and wheat growing together TILLLL the TIME of harvest come, then, gathering tares separate from wheat, and cast tares into fire.

That mean, both believers and unbelievers are GROWING TOGETHER OVER THE WORLD TILLLLLLL CHRIST COMES WITH HIS ANGELS. Believers CANNOT be separate from unbelievers TILLLLL the end of the age, WHEN Christ shall come WITH his angels, then, angels will gathering all unbelievers and separate them from believers. Same with Matt. 25:31-33.

I do have many pretrib friends, they respect me very well, they know that I am posttrib. Your guessing the percent of how many will go into heaven, you might be wrong about it. Only Jesus Christ know.

About 99% of Independent Fundamental Baptists hold OSAS doctrine over America. About 95% of IFB people believe in pretrib.

I used to believe in pretrib and osas(I believed in security salvation before), but, now no longer. I rather follow the Bible than any men's teaching of Colossians 2:8.

I am not saying all IFB people will go to hell because of OSAS. I do know many baptist who hold OSAS, but, they walking godly life, serve the Lord faithfully, I am sure that several of them as IFB people are in heaven now.

I strong and confident that Late Dr. John R. Rice is in heaven, not because of his belief on security salvaton doctrine, because of his faithful, and godly life, loved serve the Lord faithfully till his death. I admire him so well.

Also, I am not saying all non-osas people will go to heaven. Several people who are non-osas, depend on their OWN self of good works instead depend on Christ by the faith. Or, many of them who are non-osas are hyprocrisy, not practical Christian life, might be end up in hell.

I am very concerning on IFB people because of pretrib and osas, I do love them so much. Hey, I am still a TRULY baptist, because I believe a person being baptizing under the water with FULL body that what the Bible saying so. But, baptizing cannot saved us. Only faith upon Christ saved us, unless we endure with faith till the end then shall be saved - Matt 24:13.

I am very concerning with IFB people about osas and pretrib. Pretrib depends on osas strongly. Many baptists were once taste of salvation, and they were did repented of their sins, they were endure with Christ, but many of them stopped serve the Lord, back to world again, even, they still think they are still saved, already have the ticket to heaven, no matter howmuch they sinning or backslidding in their life, still go to heaven.

That is a dangerous doctrine. Sorry to saying to you and IFB people. But, I love and care all of you.

Many IFB pastors failed to discipline baby Christians, pastors left members out, allow them alk away from the Lord. Most of them did not return to their church again. They allow many people on their own way while they are on the way to hell.

Discipleship program is very important for every churches to be responsible to every people according to Matt. 28:19-20 command us to do.

Most of us disobey Christ's commission. We allow thousands or probably millions go to hell, because we do not witness or to discipline them to grow in the Lord.

I fear that many IFB people might be end up in hell with shocking.

Not only IFB, also, any religions like SBC, reformed, Assembly of God, etc. teaching on OSAS.

OSAS is very popular doctrine since John Calvin developed on the perservance of the saints and 5 points too.

I rather follow the Bible than men's doctrines according to Colossians 2:8.

OSAS is a dangerous, because many Christians think it is ADVANTAGE go ahead have a easy life and sinning while they already ticket hold for heaven.

Romans 6:1-2(remember, no verse in Paul's time) - "What shall we say then? Shall we CONTINUE in SIN, that grace may abound? God FORBID!!!!!...."

God commands us, that we ought to walk godly daily, confess our sins to God faithfully - 1 John 1:9

99% of IFB teaching on osas, even, many other religions teaching on osas- ironic, many are on the wide road lead to destruction - hell. Huh?

I fear so.

Baptists ought back to God's word and depend on what God's Word saying so.

I urge everyone of you stick with God's Word, and obey what God's word, so, you will not end up in hell.

Why? Because I care you so much same what Christ cares us so much, that He does not want us go to hell.

Bible does not saying the people of Nineveh were not God's elect.

Neither, the Bible saying Abel, Noah, Rahab were NOT the elect of God anywhere in the Bible.

I believe several of people of Nineveh were saved by repented 120 years BEFORE the destruction of Nineveh. I believe the first generation of Nineveh during Jonah's time, several of them were saved by the faith with repent are in heaven. Then, in the next generation, most of them of Nineveh turn away from God. God destroyed Nineveh, most of them are already in hell.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

Hebrews 6:1-6 (NASB):

Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Too many do not understand this milk logic
and go on to meat logic.

The Greek logic style here implies one
and only one back-track:

Jesus is already crucified.
There is no need to renew to repentance.
They did not fall away.

"they still think they are still saved, already have the ticket to heaven, no matter howmuch they sinning or backslidding in their life, still go to heaven."

Only a very dense person believes this.
It is milk foundation of repentance from dead works and milk faith toward God.

Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS)
does not come from the milk doctrine of the
duty of regenerated man. OSAS comes
from the meat Doctrine of the Nature
of God. OSAS is not about weak man,
OSAS is about a Strong God.

Did you know some of the early saints
(3rd Century = 201 -300AD) mentored new
saints two years from salvation to
baptism?