The Rapture

Ah! Good point, AMY!! :wavey:

OK --- they just HOPE they are brothers and sisters. And, more pertinent, they HOPE they will be "brides" but they're not Christ's.

Do you understand where the "I never knew you" comes from? Rom 8:9 -- "Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." But thanks for jumpin' in here and pointing that out.

skypair

 

Isn't it interesting how they had the very DAY that He would present Himself as Messiah/King from a prophet who, himself (Daniel), counted the days of the 70 years of Jeremiah's prophecy --- yet today we get static for saying it is near, "at the door?!"

skypair

 

You are quite welcome. And it will be a sad day for those "oilless" virgins. :tear:

 

Were you aware that Calvinists/Reformers don't believe in the rapture? Are they "oilless" virgins thereby? Not necessarily but one must be cautious as to why they don't understand the parables as others do.

skypair

 

Actually there are many that are not pre-mil,I for one am a-mil.

There are Southern Baptists that are not pre-mil and have not been for many many years.I live in Ky and know of several that are not pre-mil.I also know some in the United Baptists that are not pre-mil.

While I agree that we will meet Jesus in the air,I think at this point that time as we know it shall end.There will be a final judgement.

Many want to take Mathew 24 where it speaks of never being such a time again and put it into the future.What Jesus is speaking of here is the destruction of 70AD.

 

Your cause and effect here is just false. People do not deny Christ because of dogmatism they deny Christ because:

John3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

 

Matthew 13:34-43
34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
35That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.
36Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.


If I were to take the above verses alone I would lean toward a one and final gathering. Both of the saved and the unsaved. However in light of other scripture that gives us the assurance of being saved from wrath and are not the children of wrath I believe that the child of God will not be here to experience God's wrath poured out upon men. As it is in Revelation chapter 16.

Revelation 16:1-7
1And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.


I believe that we the Church will not escape severe persecution as verse 6 indicates. Every place in the Bible, where God is about to pour out His wrath, His body of believers are persecuted. Noah was mocked. The Children of Israel were enslaved. Lot was vexed. The Church will not be any different, in fact all the things that these had endured, mockery, vexation and enslavement, will be multiplied upon the Church. The same devil that was in limited control then will be in complete control here. In so much control that "If it were possible he would deceive the very elect". Matthew 24:24

Now I believe this because of the above verses of Jesus' parable. The Wheat and the Tares. Verse 38 is very clear that the wheat is the children of the Kingdom and the tares are the children of the wicked one. The "wicked one" is clearly a living breathing individual that will make himself known to the world. The significance of this parable is that both the wheat and tares grow up together and are so similar that the reapers (angels) themselves might mistake them for the other. However something changes at harvest time. The wheat begins to ripen and the ladened kernel becomes too heavy for the stalk to bear and the top of the corn begins to bow. The tare is mostly husk and it's stalk is strong and defiant.
I refer you to Rev 16:8-11
8And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

At some point the Wheat will be separated from the tares. According to the parable it will be at harvest when the wheat is bowing it's head and the tare is straight and tall with pride. This can be seen also in this parable;

Matthew 25:31-46
31When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungered, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Who then is the tare among the Church?

Much like the 5 wise and 5 foolish virgins you can not tell who's who until the "cry of the midnight hour". Both are asleep and look alike and are involved in the very same activity, sleeping. Something happens that causes their true identity to be revealed they are awakened by a sound. A warning that the last hour is upon them and the Bride Groom is coming to the house. The great identifier is the oil. Five have it and 5 do not. The oil which was plentiful and available to all who sought it is now in short supply. The oil well has been cut off. The oil exists with the wise. The wise are snatched into the house and there is none left to give light in earth's darkest hour. The Holy Spirit of God that draws men to Christ is now removed out of the world with the Church and the world is prepared for God's wrath in Revelation chapter 16. Anyone "Left Behind" is lost in the darkness.

As far as when the Church is taken I can only say that it will be before the out pouring of God's wrath. Tribulation of the Saints is what it is and God's wrath is upon the children of the "wicked one". I will say this, there is no such thing as a "mid tribulation of the saints" period and there is no such thing as a "pre tribulation of the saints" period. Once the Saints are removed the tribulation of the saints is over.

If the Saints are removed before the "Tribulation of the Saints" where is tribulation and where are the Saints?

If the Saints are removed at mid trib, then the middle is therefore the end of the tribulation of the saints and the world that is in darkness is reserved unto the Wrath of the Living God.

 

John ,

Welcome to BB. :wavey:

You are right -- more and more Baptists are turning from premil and we know that United Baptists have never taken enough of the Bible literally to ever come to a premil view.

But I think that the more you study the preterist position, the less enamored you will be with it. Mt 24 may be easy to see as past but The Revelation -- no.

As to "...meet Jesus in the air, I think at this point that time as we know it shall end" ---- Again, even a quick reading of Rev 20 shows an earthly judgment before "thrones" (20:4) and 1000 years later (20:6-7) another "great white throne" judgment in heaven (20:11-14). So that "model" is truly flawed as well.

But stick around here. Ask questions. Many of us here have studied these things out and perhaps can help. :jesus:

skypair

 

//If the Saints are removed before the "Tribulation of the Saints" where is tribulation and where are the Saints?//

The mostly Gentile (but some Messianic Jews) Church Age born-again, redeemed, Christian, chosen elect saints are removed by a resurrection/rapture BEFORE THE TRIBULATION thus escaping this tribulation. The Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints will be saved by the Hand of God -- protected in the wilderness during the Great Tribulation (second half of the Tribulation).

 

We seem to be making progress. Let me give you some advice, Ask questions. Many of us here have studied these things out and perhaps can help.

 

This is one of my series of misreadings of the KJV that change doctrine. The KJV is not wrong, those who misread the KJV are in doctrinal error

TIME & ETERNITY

Time is a finite sub-set of the infinite set: eternity.
So the old uneducated/redneck preacher that talks
about when time ends and eternity begins is 'full of it'.
Eternity by nature has no beginning and no end. God
is the creator of Eternity and exists outside Eternity as
well inside Eternity.

BTW, it is worse than I describe, a common misunderstanding
of the King James Version (KJV) leads to the 'when time ends
and eternity begins' doctrinal error.

Ad Time (eternity) H5703 - used once
Aion Time (age) G165
Aionios Time (eternal) G166
Chronos Time (time) G5550
Eis aion aion Time (forever and ever) G1519, G165, G165
Kairos Time (time ) G2540
Hemera Time (day) G2250
Hora Time (hour) G2610

Isa 57:15 (KJV1611 Edition):
For thus saith the High and loftie One that inhabiteth eternitie ,
whose Name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place:
with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,
to reuiue the spirit of the humble,
and to reuiue the heart of the contrite ones.

On 15 Aug 2006 I did a Google search on "time ends and eternity begins" getting 44 'hits'. So this is a used (though non-biblical and
non-sense) concept. 289 'hits' were received on the same search on 067 March 2008. Of course, a couple of those 'hits' were when I discussed this matter earlier.

--------------------------------
Rev 10:6-7 (KJV1611 Edition):
And sware by him that liueth for euer and euer,
who created heauen, and the things that therein are,
and the earth, and the things that therein are,
and the sea, and the things which are therein,
that there should bee time no longer.
7. But in the dayes of the voice of the seuenth Angel,
when he shall begin to sound, the mysterie of God
should be finished, as hee hath declared
to his seruants the Prophets.

'that there should bee time no longer' refers to
God's deadline having been met.
'that there should bee time no longer' does
not refer to the ceasing of time.

Indeed the phrase: "the mysterie of God
should be finished" show the meaning of:
'that there should bee time no longer' refers to
God's deadline having been met.

The clocks will keep on ticking as by the power of God
Almighty, Christ ushers in the
Earthly Millinnial Messanic Kingdom.

Revelation 10:6-7 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ )
He swore an oath by the One who lives forever and ever,
who created heaven and what is in it,
the earth and what is in it, and the sea
and what is in it:
"There will no longer be an interval of time,
7 but in the days of the sound of the seventh angel,
when he will blow his trumpet,
then God's hidden plan will be completed,
as He announced to His servants the prophets."

 

As the Five foolish virgins indicates, once the door is shut it is too late for any salvation.

Matthew 25:7-12

7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

If you do not possess the Holy Spirit you are not of God. If you are "Left Behind" you are Left Out.

Ed,
Do I detect a hint of dispensationalism?

So they are not saved by the Blood of Christ then.

God arbitrarily selects a few Jews/Israelis to be saved outside of the work of the Holy Spirit?

Scripture that would support this would be appreciated please.

 

Here is my Evangelistic Message about the pre-tribulation Rapture Event (resurreciton followed closely by a rapture). Ye a-mills feel free to write your own Evangelistic Message about the one-and-only-one post-trib Resurrection Event (resurreciton followed closely by a rapture)

--------------------------------
(resurreciton followed closely by a rapture)

Five Judgements

The Lord God is a judging God

"To judge" can mean three things in the Holy Bible:

A. to discern between good and evil (human function)
B. to condemn, usually falsely (human function)
C. to reward the just & punish the evil (Godly function)

The Five Judgements:

1. Believers for SIN on the Cross
WHO: All who will Believe
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a merciful God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

How to get from judgement 1 to judgement 2
(and avoid judgements 3, 4, or 5):

Romans 10:9 (KJV): "That if thou
shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt
believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from
the dead, thou shalt be saved."

2. Judgement Seat of Christ
(2 Cor 5:10, 1 Cor 3:11-15)
WHO: Believers for works
WHEN: during the Great Tribulation on earth;
Right after the Rapture/Resurrection that starts
the Tribulation
WHERE: Heaven
WHY: to assign rewards (including
the Millinnial Kingdom rest)
to the redeemed for their good works
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: found innocent by the Bood of Jesus

3. Judgement of Yisrael under Antichrist
(Ezekiel 22:17-22 Time of Jacob's Trouble; Ezekiel 20:34-38;
Jeremiah 30:1-24; Revelation 6-19)
WHO: Yisrael
WHEN: during the Tribulation
WHERE: earth
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Great Tribulation

4. Throne of His Glory judgement
(AKA: Sheep and Goat Nations judgement, Matthew 25:31-46)
WHO: the nations: the living surviver nations of the Great Tribulation
(these people are NOT saved, they are human in human bodies)
WHEN: after the Great Tribulation, before the Millennial Age
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God fulfills His promises: God will bless those
who bless Yisrael and curse those who curse Yisrael
HOW: Judged by their treatment of Yisrael
WHAT: the cursed nations to Hell; the blessed nations
to the Millennial Messanic KingdomAge

5. Great White Throne judgement
(Revelation 20:11:15)
WHO: the wicked dead
WHEN: after the Millennial Age; before endless ages
WHERE: between Hell and the Lake of Fire
WHY: The Lord God is not mocked
HOW: The wrath of God by Messiah Jesus
WHAT: the Messiah rejectors consigned to endless punishment

NOTE: The delineation of the five revealed
judgements above does not preclude other specific
or general judgements. One place on the net i found
a chart where TWENTY-FOUR judgements were delineated.
The Lord God is a judging God and His hand is not shortened
by His revelation to us nor
by our understaning of His revelation to us.

May Jesus our Savior and our Lord be Praised!

--compilation by ed,
incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

Also you are saying that God's hand is not adequate protection then for many are slain during your description of the "Tribulation of the Saints".

Revelation 13:7
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Revelation 16:6
6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.

Revelation 17:6
6And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Revelation 18:24
24And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

 

Ed Edwards: //The Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints will be saved by the Hand of God -- protected in the wilderness during the Great Tribulation (second half of the Tribulation).//

I clarify:

The Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints will be saved FROM THE ANTICHRIST by the Hand of God -- protected in the wilderness during the Great Tribulation (second half of the Tribulation). This is so these Jewish/Israeli can inhabit a physical/literal Millennial Messanic Kingdom

The Jewish/Israeli chosen elect saints will be saved LIKE GENTILES IN THE CHURCH AGE get saved -- forgiven by Believe that God raised Messiah Jesus from the dead and by calling Messiah Jesus Lord -- the curse of hell removed for all eternity to come.

God's wonderful plan to save the Jewish/Israeli is that when the Antichrist enters the temple to commit the AoD, then most Jewish/Israeli will be saved when they see Jesus is their Messiah (and not the Antichrist who is a phony)

Ed on Dispensation (from the Bible, of course):
----------------------------------------------------------

Dispensation in the NT, KJV1769 version:

1 Corinthians 9:17 (KJV1769):
For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward:
but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel
is committed unto me.

Ephesians 1:10 (KJV1769):
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might
gather together in one all things in Christ, both
which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Ephesians 3:2 (KJV1769):
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God
which is given me to you-ward:

Colossians 1:25 (KJV1769):
Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation
of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

The Holy Spirit hasn't shown me a lot more than is
here. I do know the Greek word being translated here
as 'dispensation' is the Greek word from which we get
'economy'.

I do know this is what the economy of God is like:

Bible Prophetic times:
'hour' = the appropriate time
'day' = the appropriate time
or '1 day' = 1,000 years
'½-week' = 3½-years
'1 day' = 'week' = 7 years
'month' = the appropriate time
year = the appropriate time

Other 'economy of God facts':

the blind see
the dead live
the deaf hear
the lame leap like deer
the first is last
the last is first
Jesus Saves (totally!)
God Rules!!
Praise to Hasheem!
-------------------------------------------------
Frequently the Bible discusses:

What is to be is discussed in either
present tense (is done) or past tense
(done already done).

 

You still are holding your viewpoint. I don't believe your viewpoint. You cannot correlate your viewpoint and mine. There are two groups of God's chosen elect saints filled churches:

1. the Church Age mostly Gentile saved-by-grace
chosen elect saints filled church
TIME: the Church Age
STATUS in the Millennium: some selected for service to Jesus (especially lthe 144,000 Messianic Jews)

2. The physical Jewish/Israeli
chosen elect saints filled church
IME: the Church Age
STATUS in the Millennium: all shall enter the Millennial Messianic Kingdom

Here is the proof text for these two groups of saints (in different time periods):

1 Corinthians 10:32 (KJV1769):
Give none offence, neither to the JEWS,
nor to the GENTILES, nor to the CHURCH OF GOD.

JEWS - saved (group two above)
GENTILES - lost
CHURCH OF GOD - gentiles saved (group 1 above)

Here is another proof text for these two groups of saints (in different time periods):

Rev 20:4-5 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement
was giuen vnto them: & I saw the soules of them that were
beheaded for the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or in their hands; and they liued and reigned with
Christ a thousand yeeres.
5 But the rest of the dead liued not againe vntill
the thousand yeeres were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The wrong doctrine:

FIRST = ONE AND ONLY ONE
so there is one and only resurrection of the two groups
shown in Revelation 20:4.

The correct doctrine:
FIRST means the groups that come before the latter groups.
(the ampersand '&' here shows two seperate sets of people)

 

Yes, that always seems strange to me. Here is my time-line of the future including today. Note that the only date on the time-line is TODAY = 06 March 2008 (but it is 07 March 2008 in Australia).

-------------------------------------

x-mill = x-millennial: the relationship of the Millennial (1,000 year)
Messianic Reign of Christ, and His Second Coming
('pre-' means the Second coming is before the Millenniuml)

x-trib = x-tribulation: the relationship of the tribulation
and the rapture/resurrection ('pre-' means the
rapture/resurrection comes before the Tribulation period)

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

Post-trib a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
(same as 2. Tribulation time)
3. Second Advent of Jesus event
(same 12-hour day as: 1. rapture/resurrection
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom, in heaven
5. spiritual new heaven & new earth

Done-did preterist a-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here
1. rapture/resurrection -- already happened
2. Tribulation time -- you are here
3. Second Advent of Jesus event -- already happened
4. spiritual MK=millennial kingdom -- already happened
5. new heaven & new earth -- you are here

---------------------------------------

The only time-line I believe to be correct is the pretrib/premill timeline.

Pretrib pre-mill outline of time forward:

0. church age continues -- you are here TODAY
1. Rapture Event = resurreciton + rapture
2. Tribulation time
3. Second Advent of Jesus event = resurrection + rapture
4. literal MK=millennial kingdom
5. new heaven & new earth

I believe the signs that we are still in the church age are Matthew 24:4-14

 

Sorry Ed, I cannot see it that way. After the first resurrection comes the 2nd resurrection of death, Hell and the grave. They are then turned over to the Great White Throne for judgment.

Revelation 20:5&6,11-15
5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power,

11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Please note that there are many books that are opened along with the Book of Life. That Book of Life is Christ. The other books are the life works of men. Each book is judged by the life of Christ. If the book of men are not referenced with the book of life that book is thrown into the fire.

Talk about a bon fire! Book burning anyone?

 

The 24-hour-day -- the time period in which the earth rotates once (relative to the Sun) measured at ONE POINT on the earth

The DAY you won't find in most Dictionaries (even so there are 8 to 15 different definitions of 'day' in most dictionaries)

The 48-hour-day -- the time period in which the earth rotates once (relative to the Sun) measured at ALL POINTS on the earth.

As I write this it is early morning (post-dawn) in Australia on 07 March 2008. So five hours of 07 Mar 2008 have happened there already. But it is some 12 hours of 07 March 2008 to happen between Australia and the USofA before I get some of 07 March 2008. And 07 March 2008 will last 24 hours where I live. Then it will be 7 hours still left in 07 March 2008 before it departs the earth never to return again.

I don't know why people don't talk about the 48-hour-day???

'Day' in Bible eschatology usually means 'the appropriate time' or 'God's time'.

 

Well at least you are not in Oklahoma. They got hit with more snow and ice again on Tuesday. 80 degrees here in sunny Florida.