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The reason God cannot sin

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Skandelon, I refer you to this post that you did not answer.

     
  2. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    And I refer you to this post 70:

     
    #122 Luke2427, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2011
  3. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke, I showed Jer 32:35 where God himself said he was not the cause of sin, but you ignored it.

    Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech, which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to CAUSE Judah to sin.

    This verse refutes your view. God himself said he never commanded this sin, it did not come into his mind, and he did not CAUSE it.

    Your view is error.
     
  4. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    No. Your poor interpretive skills are the only contradiction. They contradict the whole of Scripture and reason and logic.

    I have been clear that God is the "cause" of evil only in an ULTIMATE sense. I have distinguished "cause" by the word "ultimate" before it no less than a dozen times.

    God is not the "proximate cause" of sin. But that he willed it, decreed that it should come to pass in eternity past, empowers the one who commits it to do so, orders the state of events so that it will inevitably come to be, permits it when the time comes by refusing to restrain the evil passions of the sinner by his Providence, has a purpose for it and himself BRINGS THE DEED TO PASS by these and other factors is clear from both Scripture and logic.

    Did Herod, Pilate, the Jews and the Romans kill Christ?
    Did God kill Christ?

    Did Satan afflict Job?
    Did God afflict Job?

    Did Joseph's brothers afflict Joseph?
    Did God afflict Joseph?

    Did the Assyrians come against God's people?
    Did God come against God's people?

    Does the anti-christ lead men away from the truth?
    Does God lead those same people away from the truth?

    Did Pharaoh harden his heart?
    Did God harden Pharaoh's heart?
    (Don't be a coward and only answer this one. Arminians love to try this one while avoiding the others)
     
  5. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke, what can I say, God said he did not cause this sin, and that it never came into his mind. Is God's secret will a secret from himself?
    And in James 1:13 it says God does not tempt any man to sin. What is the cause of sin? Isn't temptation the cause of sin? Therefore, if God never tempts a man, he cannot be the cause of sin.
    This might be a poor analogy, but I believe it is similar to a game of chess. In chess, your opponent can freely move wherever they wish. Can you influence their moves? Yes, you could threaten your opponents Queen with your Bishop. Your opponent is influenced to move that Queen. But does your opponent HAVE to make that move? No, they can choose to leave the Queen where she is, and you could take her on your next move.
    What I am trying to say is that God can allow us freedom, but maintain complete control and bring about his purposes regardless of what we do.
    An example is Jonah. God did not force Jonah to go to Ninevah. Jonah ran away. So, God made his move and caused a great storm, knowing the mariners would throw him overboard. He did not make the sailors do this, but he KNEW they would. And he had a whale waiting to swallow Jonah. Being in that whale's belly certainly influenced Jonah, but that whale did not take him to Ninevah. No, Jonah had to make that walk himself.
     
  6. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I guess, I and all the scholars who read that quote which correctly concluded that Edwards was consistent with historical Arminians on this particular point also lack the capacity to "get Edwards" too? Or maybe Arminians actually did affirm that God does deeds in which would be sinful but they are not because he has a good motive? Can we find any scholars making that argument in either camp Luke?

    Once again, lets play the game, which one of these is not like the other.

    I agree with the brother who said,

    "Calvinists are seriously divided among themselves and always have been. There is Supralapsarianism vs. Sublapsarianism vs. Infralapsarianism. “The Supralapsarians hold that God decreed the fall of Adam; the Sublapsarians, that he permitted it” (McClintock & Strong). The Calvinists at the Synod of Dort were divided on many issues, including lapsarianism. The Swiss Calvinists who wrote the Helvetic Consensus Formula in 1675 were in conflict with the French Calvinists of the School of Saumur. There are Strict Calvinists and Moderate Calvinists, Hyper and non-Hyper (differing especially on reprobation and the extent of the atonement and whether God loves all men), 5 pointers, 4 pointers, 3 pointers, 2 pointers. In America Calvinists were divided into Old School and the New School. As we have seen, the Calvinists of England were divided in the 19th century."

    Whenever, therefore, one tries to state TULIP theology and then refute it, there are Calvinists who will argue with you that you are misrepresenting Calvinism. It is not so much that you are misrepresenting Calvinism, though. You might be quoting directly from various Calvinists or even from Calvin himself. The problem is that you are misrepresenting THEIR Calvinism! There are Calvin Calvinists and Thomas Fuller Calvinists and Arthur W. Pink Calvinists and Presbyterian Calvinists and Baptist Calvinists and many other sorts of Calvinists. Many Calvinists have never read Calvin’s Institutes of Christian Religion for themselves. They are merely following someone who follows someone who allegedly follows Calvin (who, by his own admission, followed Augustine).

    Calvinists believe that they have the right to reject or modify some parts of or conclusions of Calvin. I agree with them 100%, and I say, further, that we also have the right to reject the entire thing if we are convinced that it is not supported by Scripture!

    We never disagreed on that particular point, but you know what, never mind. It ain't worth it going back over the terms of the debate and the actual point of our contention again.

    With regard to all those passages. Just look at my definition of the "decree" of God (along with Edwards explanation of the origin of sin) an it will explain how God decreed evil without being the originator/creator/author of it. It happens to be the same thing historical Arminians have been teaching for years, which is certainly not what you have been saying.
     
    #126 Skandelon, Mar 2, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2011
  7. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    So you still avoid the questions and avoid the facts concerning what Calvin and Edwards says.

    Everything else you have said in this post is meaningless unless you can deal with those things.
     
  8. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Nobody cares what you have to say on this matter until you can answer the questions.
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Can I play? :laugh:


    Jesus gave Himself to be killed.

    John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.



    Satan afflicted Job.

    Job 1:11 But put forth your hand now, and touch all that he has, and he will curse you to your face.

    God permitted it.

    Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself put not forth your hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.



    Joseph's brothers afflicted him, but God permitted it for a greater purpose.

    Genesis 50:20 But as for you, you thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save many people alive.

    God takes His hand away in judgment sometimes.

    God is truth and does not lead people astray. However He allows hardened hearts to have their way and hardens them further or blinds them as judgment.

    Yes and yes.


    Where you and I differ is that I believe God is able to use man's free will and His sovereignty at the same time to accomplish His will. This is but one of the ways God is so much higher than we are.

    I see both the sovereignty of God and man's freedom to choose all through scripture. It cannot possibly be understood by the human mind.
     
  10. Winman

    Winman Active Member

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    Luke, I showed you Luke 8:55 and Jer 32:35 several days ago, to which you did not respond.

    And now you demand I answer your questions?

    You answer my questions, and THEN I will answer yours.
     
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You will not answer them because you cannot.
     
  12. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    Avoiding something would mean that I didn't reply and address the questions and arguments posed, which I did. You may not like my responses but nothing was avoided. It is clear that you are the one doing the avoiding Luke. That is quite obvious.

    BTW, in addition to what I've already said, I agree with Amy's answers. :thumbs:
     
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Alright Amy. Do you remember the ladies in that class who said that mess and were wrong because the Bible was clear that God did do what you said he did.

    You must watch out that you don't do the same thing that they did concerning this issue.

    God's Word is ABUNDANTLY clear that GOD killed Christ. Not just that he permitted it but that he brought it to pass.

    Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

    Is. 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.


    Men did it and God did it. Let God be true and every man a liar, Amy.

    The Bible is ABUNDANTLY clear that GOD afflicted Job:

    Job 2 What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

    In other words Job was right.

    Job 42 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him:


    God afflicted Job. It was permission but it was also MORE according to the Word of God.

    The Bible could NOT be CLEARER. Satan did this to Job and God did it to Job.
    Do not be like those ladies, Amy. Let the Word of God BE the authority. It says it right there before your eyes. Believe it. Do not try to explain it away.

    That's enough for now. I'll prove the other if our conversation continues.
     
  14. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    I have not at all seen you address the questions.

    And you are clearly wrong if you agree with Amy because the Bible says it was MORE than just permission.

    The BIBLE says it Skandelon. That does mean something to you, right?
     
  15. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I think God decreed sin, but then again I've provided a definition of decreed which makes that statement have meaning, while you still haven't done so.

    See my new thread on the subject of God's decrees...
     
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