The Regulative Principle

Great points John, and lets not forget Davids dancing done as an act of worship. What is the RP for that?! I wonder how many churches adhering to the RP allow dancing as a form of worship

 

Having fun while worshipping our Lord :thumbs:

 

Maybe you're not talking about such things, but others have. But let it pass, let it pass.

These are not circumstances, these are tools and methods for worship.

No one who uses puppets to present the Gospel calls that an element of worship. I'm sorry, but that's just a silly argument! Puppets are a tool to teach kids the Word of God, not something to add to the elements of worship.

And again I'll say, where in the Bible does it say that the church service is a worship service? That error causes churches to become formal and dead. We do not have "worship services," though worship may take place in our services. We have services to train people to serve and worship God according to Eph. 4, and to fellowship with and encourage one another according to Heb. 10:25.

 

I'll pray for you, bro! How close are you to retiring not fighting fires anymore?

skypair

 

John 4:23-24 "But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. (24) God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in sprit and truth." These are two specific areas to look at to start with.

To worship "in spirit" is hard to define. It probably deals with the "whole person", the inner man, not just the outward physical acts of worship.

This is similar to Jesus telling the Pharisees they honor God with their lips, but their hearts are far from Him.

To worship in spirit, I believe, also includes the fact of the indwelling Holy Spirit which helps us in our acts of worship.

I certainly would not want to try to define certain physical acts that reflect worship in spirit. The Pentecostals might say speaking in tongues in worshipping in the spirit, but I disagree.

The second command is somewhat easier to define. We are to worship God the Father in "truth". What is truth? Jesus said in John 17:17, "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth."

"Truth" is a repeated theme in John's gospel. It is likely that John is further elaborating upon John 4 in John 17. To worship in truth, then, would mean to worship according to God's Word. It is God's Word that "sanctifies" the believer. It sets us apart from the world.

There are various, specific commands concerning how we are to approach God. Hebrews 12:28 advises us to show gratitude to God, offering service in reverence and awe. These are important commands to keep.

Paul warned the Corinthians not to take the Lord's supper in an unworthy manner, lest they be guilty to the body and blood of our Lord. He said many were sick, and some had died, because of the manner in which they were observing the Lord's Supper. I Cor. 11:19-34.

Paul continued in 14:40 "But let all things be done properly and in an orderly manner". Paul also stressed the need for decency and modesty in our worship.

When considering whether an activity of worship is proper, I suggest (I didn't come up with this on my own) searching scripture for New Testament commands, then New Testament warrant, then Old Testament commands, then Old Testament warrant; for the act of worship.

The technology is incidental, as long as the act doesn't violate the command of reverence and awe. The act of singing hymns has both Old Testament and New Testment commands and warrant. David told us to sing "new songs" and to play musical intruments to the Lord. Modern hymns have warrant. Sing away, loud and clear.

There are no New Testament commands, that I am aware of, concerning clerical robes or a suit and tie. There is a command to preach to the gospel. What you wear is incidental, unless it is immodest or distracts from your message.

Not that I can find. There is the command to do everything properly, and in an orderly manner.

There are many commands concerning the teaching of scripture. Of course you can have Sunday School.

Incidental. However, doing everything properly and in order allows for a place for ladies to nurse in private, or for very young children to be cared for separtely so as not to disturb the service. Use your best judgment.

No commands, that I am aware of, that you must meet in a certain place to worship. Certainly there is warrant to meet in homes, and lecture halls, and on the beach, and in public squares. To meet at the local Hooters would probably violate the "reverence and awe" command, however.

The regulative principle, rightly understood and practiced, allows for Christian liberty while acknoweldging God has given us certain commands for worship that are pleasing to Him and edifying to us.

I hope this helps, C4K.

peace to youraying:

 

A few years--9 or 10. May have a couple of funerals coming up. Talked about that today with Mr. Ueno, whose father is 92 and mother about 86.

Hmm, funerals and the regulative principle. I guess we should bury them without funerals since the Bible says so little about funerals. Someone figured out that Jesus never conducted a funeral service. Everytime He came around, the dead person sat up and talked and walked! :jesus:

 

"Dance, David dance!" If anyone gets excited at my preaching enough to stand up and hop around (not likely), I doubt that I'll say, "Citizen's arrest, citizen's arrest. That's against the regulative principle!"

 

These are all good. Spiritual worship is also non-carnal. The worship of the Jews was carnal (Heb. 7:16, 9:10). Though God has always looked upon the heart, Ps. 51:16-17, a right heart does not sanctify carnal modes or make them spiritual.

Therefore, allusions others have made to David's dancing and other practices of Israel under the law are moot when it comes to defining true, spiritual worship.

 

With this post you inadvertanly point out the fundamental problem with the regulative principle. It assumes that the worship ceremonies of the OT Jewish law are equivalent to the meetings of the NT church, and that is not at all true. They are apples and oranges, with different methodology and different purposes and goals.

I have said on another thread, and now on this thread: the meetings of the NT church are nowhere, that is absolutely nowhere in the NT called worship services or described as such. Worship takes place in the services of the church, but nowhere in the NT is that stated as the goal or reason for the services of the NT church.

In fact, "worship" and "church" never occur in the same verse in the NT, and only once occur in the same passage, but with no indication that the church service is a worship service: Rev. 3:7-8. A better word is "preaching service," as witness the Sunday meeting where Paul raised Eutychus from the dead, in Acts 20:7--"And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight."

 

I Cor. 14:23-25 "If therefore the whole church should assemble together and all speak in tongues, and ungifted men or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are mad? (24) But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or an ungifted man enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all; (25) The secrets of his heart are disclosed; and so he will fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you."

In this passage, the "whole church has assembled". Paul instructs them concerning a desired outcome; i.e. an unbeliever will "fall on his face and worship God, declaring that God is certainly among you."

This certainly describes an assembly of the church where the conversion of unbelievers and the worship of God is the stated, desired outcome.

peace to youraying:

 

Yet the lessons taught by the law are spiritual, eternal, universal and non-optional. Paul alludes to the law on more than one occassion to justify the practices of women keeping silence and paying a living wage to ministers.

There are principles contained in the law which pertain directly to the manner of Christian worship.

 

Nice try but no cigar. The outcome is that one person worshipped God, not the whole congregation. In fact, someone might even use this passage to say that a purpose of the church service was evangelism! :smilewinkgrin:

The regulative principle is based on the concept of corporate worship in the church, not individual worship. Unless you prove corporate worship from the word of God, then you have not proved your point.

 

Well, you made several absolute statements;

I am just pointing out that the I Cor. 14 passage does, in fact, use the word church and worship in the same passage. In addition, the stated goal of their activity is to convert unbelievers and get them to worship God. That proves you are incorrect on at least two of your three main assertions.

I believe you are incorrect on the 3rd as well. It seems quite logical to me that the unbeliever of I Cor. 14 (converted and now a believer) is joining the church in their corporate activity, which is the worship of God.

I would point out, as well, that the regulative principle is not based on the concept of corporate worship.

The regualtive principle is based on the concept that God knows best how He wants to be worshiped and has given us specific commands and warrants in scripture that reveal this to us. This includes both individual and corporate worship.

peace to youraying:

 

Point taken that worship and church are together in 1 Cor. 14. I spoke too soon.

However, the idea that corporate worship is in 1 Cor. 14 is only your opinion. The passage does not say that. On the contrary, verse 26 makes it plain that their purpose when coming together is edification. In the case of the one (just one, not corporate) unbeliever mentioned in the text, their edification brought him to worship individually. That is my view of NT worship, that it occurs individually, that all of us ought to worship all the time.

You are welcome to believe that 1 Cor. 14 discusses corporate worship. But the text doesn't say so. It only occurs in reference to one person. In fact, this is the only place I can find the word worship in 1 or 2 Cor., much of which is telling the Corinthians how to do church. Personally I prefer to believe what is in the text, no more no less. That's my regulatory principle for interpretling the Word of God.

This is quibbling. You know what I meant. In history the regulatory principle has been used primarily in connection with the services of the church.

Look back at the OP. Virtually every one of J. D.'s examples had to do with how we do church. He wrote,

 

:godisgood:

I guess we should have defined "worship" at the onset. One of the best explanations of worship is found in Rev. 4. Those standing in the presence of God ascribe "worth-ness" to Him. There are certain things about God that have been revealed to those in His presence. They respond with "worship".

The four "living creatures" proclaim God to be "Holy, Holy, Holy" and make a statement of His eternal existence. The 24 elders proclaim God to be the creator and sustainer of all things. All of this is a response to the revelation of God to them. They are in the presence of God, and they must worship. It is corporate worship in heaven.

If you are in the presence of God,(focusing upon His revelation) you must worship.

The unbeliever (now converted) of I Cor. 14 worships God, making the statement that "God is certainly among you". When you, corporately or individually, come into the presence of God (that is to focus upon His revelation of Himself to us), then you worship.

It is as simple as an individual stating "God is good" as you read through a psalm and the Spirit illumines something to you that you have never noticed before; or as complex as the entire church being moved by the Spirit to repentence for dividing into factions and then thanksgiving for God's grace.

Any given Sunday, the meetings of a Christian fellowship should/could(?) follow that pattern of worship. That is, God reveals Himself to us (through His Word: by preaching, by reading, by meditating of the Sunday School lesson, etc) and His people on earth respond just as His people in heaven are responding continuously.....they worship God.

True, but lacking the corporate focus that is found in much of Paul's writings. The edification that occurs is not for the benefit of the individual who edifies, but for others around them. In fact, Paul is chastising the Corinthians for being concerned only about their own edification.

That is true. J.D. has, I believe, not thought through the regulative principle as well as he should have. The regulative principle is, essentially, a matter of Christian concious.

If you believe you find a command or warrant for some activity in scripture (Sunday School, Children's church etc), then I cannot criticize you. I might disagree, but I cannot criticize.

I am satisfied when the scriptures are sought to find the foundation for the activity. The rest is between you and God.

peace to youraying:

 

You're right, we should have defined worship. We assume that other believers have our view, and that is often not so. Your definition is good, but not quite satisfactory to me. I don't believe it fits precisely the way the word is used in the NT.

Being a linguist, I define worship linguistically, that is by their usage in Scripture. There are two primary NT Greek words for worship (with several other minor words). The verb proskuneo occurs in 54 verses and virtually always means to physically bow down. This is the word used in 1 Cor. 14:25, and I believe it denotes the posture for prayer in this and many other cases. This is what I see all the time in Japan, people literally bowing down to idols. Another missionary and I once had to stop an old Japanese woman from bowing down to us and saying, "You are like gods."

The other main word is latreuo, which occurs in 21 verses and means primarily to worship God in service to Him. Once my friend and I saw a Shinto priest sprinkling holy water around his shrine. This would be latreuo worship. We tried to witness to him but he was too wrapped up with his petty little “gods” and wouldn’t even recognize our existence.

This is all fine and good, and sounds spiritual, but once again I have to say, the word worship is not used in that way in 1 Cor. 14 except for the individual. You're extrapolating, not exegeting. The text does not call the meeting of the church in 1 Cor. 14 "worship."

Your view of activities included in worship is too broad for my linguistic definition. It also does not fit the common English understanding. Note the following definition from Microsoft Bookshelf 98, which would not include some of what you are appear to be considering worship (though it does fit Rev. 4 quite well--good call): "1.a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed. 2.Ardent devotion; adoration."

So once again, the purpose for church given in 1 Cor. 14 is edification. You may include this as worship by your broad definition. I would not. Teaching does not equal worship.

Well said, recognizing soul liberty. I would just add that so many times when Christian activities are criticized the method is mistaken for the principle or the command. Sunday School is a method of teaching, and is thus obeying the principle that church is for edification, and the command that we are to teach others all that Christ taught us.