The SBC: S-lowly B-ecoming C-atholic?

You seem to be against this.

Can you explain what you mean?

 

Then don't develop the discipline of silence if it's not for you. But don't accuse those who wish to develp a discipline of silence of not being scriptural just because you dont' like it.

Are you saying that it's unscriptural to say the Holy Spirit speaks to a person's soul? Sounds like you're splitting hairs here.

The OT isn't God's word? Do you subscribe to the myth that if it's not in the NT, then it's not valid? There's certainly no scriptural support for that.

 

Why would it matter if something is or is not mentioned in the epistolary literature?

If it is mentioned once as a command (specifically in the NT) it is a command. If it is mentioned once as a principle it is a principle.

Now if you are suggesting that the New Testament epistles are the only barometer for the practices of Christianity (which I hope you are not) than you are hedging on an ancient heresy that denies the authority of the entire Bible. Surely I have missed something here.

This is completely false. I'm sorry but its false. The disciplines are spoken of throughout the Bible and we are exhorted to embrace them. Now I will say that like many other concepts in Christianity we take the guidelines for disciplines from across the Scriptures and apply them to our lives. Several of the things you mentioned above fall into disciplines.

It should be noted that spiritual disciplines do not add or take away from our justification but rather exist to strengthen our sanctification. Since Baptists rightly believe that once one is justified through the grace of faith given by God one cannot lose or walk away from that justification, this issue isn't about gaining more justification.


1 Corinthians 9:24-27, this is a passage where Paul uses atheletic metaphors to speak about how, as Christians, we must spiritually discipline ourselves to be ready to "run the race" of faith. Without discipline atheletes cannot compete. The same is for Christians.

Romans 12:1-2, this passage speaks about the discipline it takes to renew our minds and being able to test and approve what is or is not the will of God. We are exhorted by Paul to actively discipline ourselves to be transformed.

1 Thessalonians 5:12-22, here Paul speaks to some basic disciplines as doorways to showing God's love to others.

Matthew 6:5-15, Jesus gives practical advice about the discipline of prayer and how we are to go before God regularly with prayer. Notice here that Jesus' words anticipate Christians following the example of the Scriptures in daily or regular prayers. The "When" in verse 7 is telling imho. Jesus has an expectation that we are to discipline our lives with prayer.

Matthew 6:16-18, the subsequent passage is about fasting. If we were to take time and look at the Greek in this passage (you can see it in the English too) there is an expectation of the practice in the lives of His hearers.

Colossians 3:17, Paul speaks about whatever we do in our spiritual practice/disciplines to do them in the name of Jesus Christ. Paul's point is that we are to understand disciplines not as salvific but as edifying and building principles for a life devoted to Christ.

1 Timothy 4:7-10, again Paul is talking about the "training in godliness." Honestly this is a powerful section about why we must use spiritual discipines to equip ourselves for the day.

This is only a sampling of some verses. I tried to focus on Christ's commands and Paul's commands since you had mentioned there is nothing in the epistles about it. Practicing basic spiritual disciplines is a doorway to a strengthened and growing spiritual life. If you are not practicing them I would encourage anyone to do so. My daily disciplines lead also work with other regular disciplines and have been a powerful way for me to grow.

I am not an apostate (well to some around here maybe but I'm not worried about that.) I serve Christ. I discipline myself to serve Him better. Spiritual disciplines are absolutely essential to a growing life in Christ. They are not mystical or anti-biblical...but rather the spiritual workout we all need so badly.

 

My friend, although we will disagree on topics, I will never, never consider you to be an apostate. I will always consider you to be a committed, Christ-centered believer and follower of our Lord and Savior. That's what you are! Don't ever let anyone tell you differently. If they do, let me at em!

 

Nothing I said indicates I do not think the OT is valid.

What people are missing here is that the way these disciplines are being taught, for the most part, are based on Catholic mysticism and Catholic beliefs.

I have read Foster, Keating, Pennington, the "Cloud of Unknowing" and some of the mystics. The mystics believed you had to go through stages such as purgation and illumination to reach "union with God." That provides a large part of the basis for some of these disciplines as they are being taught by many.

 

I am thinking you go the above from Dallas Willard? I know he talks about some of those - I read his book.

I can read all those passages and be edified by them and be convicted by them (and I have) without thinking of the word "disciplines" or reading any books by Willard or others telling me what disciplines are or how I should apply them. The Bible is clear enough. I don't need Catholic teachings on this. I repeat: the concept of disciplines comes from the Roman Catholic monastic tradition. That is just a fact.

 

Actually I got those from taking time yesterday to look up the appropriate verses. I didn't refer to a book, just wanted to show you Scripture. Honestly I read Willard's book about 5 years ago, I liked it. But the above post was my own work from my own study.

Well clearly no one is going to show you any different. I would challenge you to show me in the Bible where practicing these disciplines is wrong. Actually this is something that I have asked for from others in this thread, where is it shown in Scripture these practices are wrong?

All of the above post was my own thought. I posted it so you would interact with it, but obviously that probably isn't going to happen. Too often around here people get confronted with points that are biblical and just pass them off or such, pretty discouraging.

Well you're wrong. I'm sorry but you're wrong. Besides if a Catholic has used a good practice to help grow their faith so be it. My life and ministry has been deeply impacted (for good) by practicing the disciplines. I have daily disciplines I use, I also have regular disciplines to include as I am led.

These disciplines have been used by Christians since the inception of the New Testament church. If a Roman Catholic monk has used them that is fine, they have access to the same record of God's revelation that you and I do. Having Catholics use these doesn't disqualify them.

So, I'll wait and see if anyone answers my main question: where is it shown in Scripture these practices are wrong?

 

I need to repeat what I said before: The way we are being told to practice these is based on what some of the mystics did and taught or wrote, and what some Catholic monks have been teaching. I have read some of these works and find many unbiblical concepts, such as a "wordless" prayer that is done through techniques of controlled breathing and repeating a word over and over being superior to a verbal one. They make much of mystical, esoteric practices.

No, I'm not. Research it -- the term "Spiritual Disciplines" comes from the catholic monastics.

B

I have a big issue with your statement above - if a Catholic has used a good practice to grow their faith -- we have to first talk about their faith as a Catholic, concept of salvation and justification, etc. If they are starting off on the wrong foot, all the "disciplines" in the world mean nothing.

What you mean by discipline and what the Catholics have taught are not necessarily the same thing.

I do not see support for repeating a "sacred word," for going through stages to reach union with God, for the belief that thinking of God gets in the way of being close to Him, for the belief that we need to go into a non-thinking state, for the belief that a prayer without thinking is better than a verbal prayer, for belief that we can read the scriptures in a mystical fashion by trying not to think about the content, and more.