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The Scriptures The Criterion For Interpreting Christ

Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Mark Osgatharp, Aug 13, 2003.

  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Paul wasn't speaking to the ancient Hebrews. He was speaking to the Romans.

    I gave a wonderful book by a scholar that you haven't even responded to showing what Roman servanthood really consisted of. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to look into it - that would require perhaps admitting that you were wrong.

    In the absence of argument, you tend to move towards logical fallacies. Here, we see it again. I've given a great reference that highlights the differences between Roman slavery and American slavery. This was ignored. I've shown how doulos means something completely different than servanthood. Here is an example that may be a little overboard, but it woudl seem that you only respond to servanthood.

    A seven-year-old girl is kidnapped by a gang in Los Angeles. This gang trades her to another gang for cocaine and other drug paraphenalia. She is given the title "slave" by the gang, who summarily beat her and rape her day in and day out. It doesn't take long for her to become a shell of a girl. The gang members are her masters. She is their slave. They call themselves such.

    Now, would you agree that God has blessed this relationship? Is it wrong of me to rescue that girl? Or should she submit herself to her authorities?


    -------

    Now, this girl that was stolen is your daughter. Will you give the same answers?
     
  2. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    So you are saying that the Romans didn't buy and sell slaves? Are you saying that all slaves under the Roman Empire were nothing but indentured servants?

    .

    These men are not "her authorities" because the government of the United States of America has made it impossible to legally own a slave. Anyone in this country who presumes to enslave anyone is guilty of unlawful restraint and should be punished as a criminal.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  3. Paul of Eugene

    Paul of Eugene New Member

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    So Mark, when Lincoln issued the emancipation proclamation, do you consider that an unjustified deprival of people's property rights?

    If a slave were escaped, would it be right to take that slave back to his master against his will?
     
  4. aefting

    aefting New Member

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    Just read through this thread and wanted to comment on something that was said earlier:

    I think you are confusing submission with love.

    Andy
     
  5. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    So you are saying that the Romans didn't buy and sell slaves? Are you saying that all slaves under the Roman Empire were nothing but indentured servants?</font>[/QUOTE]What I am saying is that there are distinct differences between what the OT says and what the NT says. Please tell me you believe that.

    But, wait - where in the Bible is that found? "Slavery is wrong if the government says it is wrong." Do you think that the people in China who continue to worship is guilty and should be punished as criminals? If slavery is really a good thing, then shouldn't we be trying to reinstate it?

    Same scenario. Slavery is now legal in the US. You are free. Your daughter is not and is subject to all those things. DO you encourage her to continue to be submissive to the raping and the beating?
     
  6. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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  7. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    No, because the government has the right to make a law to take whatever they want from you and to grant freedom to whoever they wish.

    That would depend on the laws governing slavery. Under the Old Testament law runaway slaves were not to be returned to their masters. But then again, Paul sent Onesimus back to Philemon. He sure wasn't operating an underground railroad.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  8. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    I have not commented on whether or not I think slavery is a good thing. I have only pointed up the fact that the Bible told a man who was a slave to be obedient and respectful to his master.

    If the government frees all slaves - which it certainly has the right to do - then it is sinful to own slaves. Just like it was sinful to drive 70 miles an hour on the interstate when the national speed limit was 55 but it is now perfectly moral. But if the government says you are a slave, then you are a slave. As Peter says,

    "Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well. For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: as free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.

    Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

    Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully."

    Comparing slavery to pagan worship is comparing apples to oranges. Pagan worship is inherently sinful and we are authorized by the word of God to disobey authorities when they command us to do something sinful. But it is not sinful to be a slave and therefore Paul says,

    "Art thou called being a servant? care not for it: but if thou mayest be made free, use it rather."

    To the raping? No, because it is immoral to submit to intercourse with anyone but your spouse. This is where "we ought to obey God rather than man." To the beatings? Yes, as Peter said,

    "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  9. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    To the raping? No, because it is immoral to submit to intercourse with anyone but your spouse. This is where "we ought to obey God rather than man." To the beatings? Yes, as Peter said,

    "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward."

    Mark Osgatharp [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]First of all, you've never answered the fact that servanthood was much different than slavery. So your point has already fallen.

    Second, I hope that your wife does not read these boards. I really don't. Anyone who would not try to rescue their daughter from being beaten is quite a depraved human being.
     
  10. Mark Osgatharp

    Mark Osgatharp New Member

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    There is nothing to answer because you've given no Biblical evidence that Roman slavery was any different than American slavery.

    On top of that, we have barely mentioned slavery and the Law of Moses. In the Law of Moses, which was given to the Jews by God Almighty, slavery was perfectly legal. If slavery was inherently evil, why didn't the Lord make a commandment,

    "Thou shalt not own a slave."

    To the contrary, the Lord Himself did say,

    "But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor they son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates; that thy manservant and thy maidservant may rest as well as thou.

    And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath."

    Got that, Scott? The reason God gave the Sabbath was so the slaves of the Hebrews would have a day off every week. When the Hebrews remember the Egyptian bondage they were to think that their own slaves needed a day off each week.

    Too bad the Lord didn't consult with you and then all those slaves would have been set free.

    If I thought my daughter was being unlawfully beaten, I would attempt to rescue her. If she was being lawfully beaten, there would be nothing I could do to stop it.

    "Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward. For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully. For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

    For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously: who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."

    Here Christ is manifestly declared to be an example for servants to follow, suffering wrongful stripes. Chew on that a while, Scott.

    Mark Osgatharp
     
  11. timothy 1769

    timothy 1769 New Member

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    mark,

    your stand with the scriptures and our lord is amazing. you're the real deal. i think i need to figure out how i can visit your church soon.

    with utmost respect,
    timothy
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    That is like saying that there is no Biblical evidence between a Republican and a Democrat. History shows this to be the case. You are now just being complete obvlivious to the real world and any manner of proper Biblical understanding. The facts are the facts: Roman slavery was different than American slavery. Because the Bible was completed in the 1st century after the death of Christ, Paul would have had no knowledge of the types of treatments that the American slaves would have undergone. So how do you suppose the Bible should address this?

    Let us take your argument to its logical conclusion: There is also no Biblical evidence between a Chevy and a Ford, so we must conclude that they are the same thing.

    There is no Biblical evidence between the lamps mentioned in the OT and the lamps we currently have today. We must conclude that there was electricity in the Bible, since we clearly have electricity now... oh, wait, electricity isn't in the Bible, so we're out of luck either way.

    Come to think of it, I can't find in my Bible that you even exist. Oh, the quandry!

    This sentence sets up who you really are, Mark. You are completely oblivious to any type of true Biblical understanding. Again, I am very sad that you would allow your daughter to be beaten to an inch of her life. I don't know who I feel sorrier for - your daughter, or your congregation. Sorry for the words, but they are the Truth. I really do feel pity for them.
     
  13. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    It is amazing. Amazing how a person can honestly believe these things. It is ironic that liberals are derided for going against the Word of God, while people such as Mark are willing to rape the Holy Scriptures to fortify their own ignorant positions.
     
  14. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    Scott, though you have continued to assert that Roman and pre-civil war American slavery are different, I don't think you ever answered this question that Mark posed:
    It also appears that many things stated by Kathryn Welch of the "doulos" could also have been said of the pre-civil war American slave: "...In many cases, it was a better life to be a slave than a free peasant...Slaves could be freed by their masters...many were treated as family members, and some even inherited freedom and property from their masters...many were allowed to have families...the life of a slave was not as bad as many of us may have first thought...Slaves did not just do the menial and dangerous tasks." So we see, that this slavery could have much in common with what is considered from the pre-Civil War. Is your argument that owning human beings is not the moral evil, but rather how they are treated? At times that seems to be what you oppose (owning persons), and at others it appears that you are only opposed to owning persons in America.
     
  15. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    </font>[/QUOTE]One similarity does not make two things identical. A Ford has a horn. A unicorn has a horn. A Ford is not the same thing as a unicorn.
     
  16. Kent Witcher

    Kent Witcher New Member

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    Originally posted by rlvaughn:
    [QB] Scott, though you have continued to assert that Roman and pre-civil war American slavery are different, I don't think you ever answered this question that Mark posed:
    quote:
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    ...are (you) saying that the Romans didn't buy and sell slaves?
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Scott,

    Man you're really grasping at straws now. No matter what brand of vehicle a car is it's still a car. Likewise slavery even though it may contain some cultural differences is still slavery plain and simple.

    Grow up and deal with the facts!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
    There is nothing to answer because you've given no Biblical evidence that Roman slavery was any different than American slavery.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Scott Emerson said:
    That is like saying that there is no Biblical evidence between a Republican and a Democrat. History shows this to be the case. You are now just being complete obvlivious to the real world and any manner of proper Biblical understanding. The facts are the facts: Roman slavery was different than American slavery. after the death of Christ, Paul would have had no knowledge of the types of treatments that the American slaves would have undergone. So how do you suppose the Bible should address thiBecause the Bible was completed in the 1st century s?

    Let us take your argument to its logical conclusion: There is also no Biblical evidence between a Chevy and a Ford, so we must conclude that they are the same thing.

    There is no Biblical evidence between the lamps mentioned in the OT and the lamps we currently have today. We must conclude that there was electricity in the Bible, since we clearly have electricity now... oh, wait, electricity isn't in the Bible, so we're out of luck either way.

    Come to think of it, I can't find in my Bible that you even exist. Oh, the quandry!

    This sentence sets up who you really are, Mark. You are completely oblivious to any type of true Biblical understanding. Again, I am very sad that you would allow your daughter to be beaten to an inch of her life. I don't know who I feel sorrier for - your daughter, or your congregation. Sorry for the words, but they are the Truth. I really do feel pity for them.
    One similarity does not make two things identical. A Ford has a horn. A unicorn has a horn. A Ford is not the same thing as a unicorn.
    -------------------------------------------------

    Scott, Scott, Scott, obviously the Bible doesn't talk about Ford's and electric lamps and the such but it does however talk about slavery.

    Transportation is transportation, light is light, a car is a car and slavery is slavery.

    Again this is so obvious.

    -------------------------------------------------
    Scott Emerson said:
    Paul would have had no knowledge of the types of treatments that the American slaves would have undergone. So how do you suppose the Bible should address thiBecause the Bible was completed in the 1st century s?
    -------------------------------------------------

    Again we must go to the Word of God. "There is no new thing under the sun" and Again "all scripture is given by inspiration of God"

    What you've said in essence is that not Paul but God almighty didn't know what the plight of pre civil war slaves in America would be and therefore God didn't know what he was talking about when he told slaves to submitt to an evil master.

    Talk about someone showing their true colors.

    Again very obvious.
    Kent Witcher
     
  17. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Is it? Is there a difference between slavery in which slaves are treated as humans and slavery in which slaves are treated as animals? Kent and Mark say "no." I say, "yes."

    Is there a difference between slavery in which people were allowed to sell themselves into servanthood to survive and slavery in which people were taken from their families against their will and forced to work? Mark and Kent say, "no." I say, "yes."

    Is there a difference between slavery in which people got standard housing, food, and amenities and slavery in which people had to sleep in barracks that resembled concentartion camps, with similar food as well? Mark and Kent say, "no." I say, "yes."

    Is there a difference between slavery in which people were generally respected as members of the family and slavery in which slaves were considered fair ground to rape, molest, and force to breed? Mark and Kent say, "no." I say "yes."

    I believe that this makes is quite clear that slavery isn't always slavery. There is just slavery and unjust slavery. There is slavery that was permitted by God, and then conditions that God detests. If anyone believes that God gave His blessing to the slave conditions that existed in America, then I don't think that we serve the same God. You see, I serve the God of the Bible - the God who commanded us to fight against injustice and commanded us to love our brothers, the God who was very clear about the intrinsic value of humanity.


    Check your hermeneutic of the Ecclesiastes passage. What does "under the sun" mean. Check out some Bible commentaries here. Just as the book of Job contains arguments that God directly refuted later, so Ecclesiastes contains many isolated statements that contradict the final conclusion.

    No. What I am saying is that God specifically was speaking of a specific type of slavery that was present in Roman times. He uses the word "bondservant," which is MUCH different than what a slave in pre-Civil War conditions would have been.
     
  18. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    The question was not whether they were the exact same thing (though other similarities have been pointed out). The question was whether the Roman bought & sold slaves. So that I am not misunderstanding you, I ask this: "Do you consider the buying, selling, and owning of humans as practiced by the Romans to be morally neutral?"
     
  19. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson Active Member

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    Personally, I think that such things are wrong. I could never own another person, nor would I care to associate with those who would be okay with such practices. However, there was a time and place for such things, as demonstrated in different places in the OT and NT. I would also add that the practices in Rome most often involved a person willingly giving himself in servitude to the master. I am quite against the stealing of others into slavery.

    The buying and selling of slaves in pre-Civil War America was morally reprehensible.
     
  20. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    But wasn't Paul "ok" with such a practice in Ephesus and Colosse?
    If it is a moral wrong, how can there be a time and place for it? Is there a time and place for adultery, lieing, stealing, murdering?
    But you admit that was not always the case. Paul did not specify that his instructions were only for someone who had sold himself into slavery.

    As I see it, Scott, it seems that in trying to differentiate between the pre-civil war American slavery and Roman slavery, you have tried to paint the American version as a moral evil and the Roman version as a moral good, thereby relieving Paul of any responsibility in encouraging what you see as a moral evil. But, are you not now saying that buying, selling and owning humans is always a moral evil - "I think that such things are wrong"?
     
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