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The Second Coming Of Our Lord Jesus Christ

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by OldRegular, Sep 9, 2005.

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  1. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Me4Him,

    You saying rapture is not resurrection. 1 Thess. 4:15-17 telling us, when Christ shall decend from the heaven, the dead in Christ shall be rise FIRST then alive and remain shall be caught up in the air.

    It tells us, rapture will not be occured till resurrection must come first.

    Clear, John 6:39,40,44, & 54 tell us, we shall be rise on the 'last day'. That will be on the final day of this age at Christ's coming.

    The second grade student understands that the next day will be the last day of school. Then, after that day passed, NO MORE class again for the summer.

    There is no hint find anywhere in the Bible saying there shall be two raptures or two resurrection apart between 3 1/2 years or 7 years. Bible teaching clearly, the resurrection shall be on the last day.

    Early Church understoods 'last day' will be the final day of the age, there shall be a general judgment day, and a single day of the resurrection shall be at Christ's coming. Because they did read the scriptures saying it. They believed it.

    We have back to Bible with truths and follow them what these saying rather than listening to today's teachers & commentatories- Col. 2:8.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  2. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    The "First Resurrection" is when we return to the earth with Jesus at his "Second coming", but to "return" we have to first "LEAVE", as in rapture.

    The "SECOND RESURRECTED" is at the GWT, both saved from the MK, and Lost from throughout history, the unsaved are not resurrected in the "First resurrection", they remain dead until the GWT, which is the "SECOND RESURRECTION".

    The MK, or a thousand years is between the "first and second" resurrection, that is the "SEVENTH DAY" of rest.

    Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death (resurrection) hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The GWT occurs on the "EIGHTH DAY", but I'd bet you didn't know there was an "EIGHTH DAY"???

    Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

    God has declared the end of the earth from the beginning.

    If we look at the "pattern of days" described for the beginning, they are the "same pattern" described for the "END".

    [​IMG]

    You won't find an "EIGHTH DAY" in the original creation day, because God "DID NOT" predestine sin, "ADAM" ended the 7th day when he sinned, in effect creating the "EIGHTH DAY".

    In scripture the "EIGHTH DAY" is known as a "DAY OF NEW BEGINNING".

    Here's why,

    in the eighth day.

    1.Sin/death enter the world

    2.Jesus removed it for believers, (resurrected, "first day of week, Eighth day)

    3.After the 7th day, (MK) and in the "EIGHTH DAY", satan is loose then the GWT Judgment.

    IF Adam had not sinned, creating the "EIGHTH DAY", then none of the above would have been necessary.

    And you can see why it's a "Day of new beginning" in each case.

    The "LAST DAY" really is the "EIGHTH DAY". [​IMG]
     
  3. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    See how deep the dispensationalists have dug their hole! :D Now we have Adam the Creator when Scripture clearly states that all things were created by God the Son:

    John 1:1-3
    1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2. The same was in the beginning with God.
    3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Me4Him

    Read verse 5 in context.

    Revelation 20:4-6, KJV
    4. And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
    5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.
    6. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.


    It must be acknowledged that the above passage is very difficult to interpret. This passage is the only place in the New Testament where the thousand year reign of Jesus Christ, popularly called the millennial reign, is mentioned and gives rise to the various views of the millennial kingdom.

    In beginning the discussion of this passage I believe it can be conceded, although the passage is highly symbolic, that it teaches two resurrections, a first resurrection is mentioned directly, a second resurrection is implied. The first resurrection occurs prior to the beginning of a one thousand year period in which Jesus Christ reigns; the second resurrection occurs at the end of the one thousand year reign. It should be noted at this point that all of the Old Testament references to the Kingdom are to an everlasting kingdom.

    However, if we are to clearly understand this passage we must first understand what the Apostle sees.

    First John sees thrones. These thrones are occupied but their occupants are not identified. Now we may conclude without doubt that these thrones represent power and those who occupy them have power, the power to judge.

    Second John sees souls, the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands. Note that he does not see bodies but souls. Should one ask how John sees souls, recall that this is a vision, John sees what God chooses. Now it is true that in Scripture the word soul is often used to refer to living people, for example: in Acts 2:41 three thousand souls were added to the church, in Acts 27:37 there were three hundred and seventy six souls on the ship carrying Paul to Rome. In these passages souls is used as a figure on speech. However the context in Revelation 20:4 is different in that the word souls is not used as a figure of speech but refers to distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies, i.e., the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus. The souls that John sees are of those of deceased Saints. In Revelation 6:9-11 the Apostle John also writes of the souls of deceased believers as distinct entities apart from their associated physical bodies.

    1. that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
    2. and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands.


    The passage reads as if John were speaking of only one group of people with multiple descriptions. However, since those beheaded for the witness of Jesus are included in those which had not worshipped the beast it is likely that he is describing all Saints of God.

    We now know what John reportedly saw. In order to further understand what John is teaching in Revelation 20:4-6 we must now determine :

    1. Who is in control, who is reigning on earth and throughout creation at the present time, Jesus Christ or Satan? If Jesus Christ is not reigning now when does that reign begin?
    2. What is the First Resurrection?
    3. Who are those who have part in the First Resurrection


    1. Scripture is abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is in control now, is reigning now.

    Ephesians 1:20-22, KJV
    20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set [him] at his own right hand in the heavenly [places],
    21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
    22. And hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church,


    In this passages it is made abundantly clear that Jesus Christ is reigning now, both on earth and throughout His creation. The Apostle Paul tells us that God the Father: hath put all [things] under his feet, and gave him [to be] the head over all [things] to the church.

    Who is reigning with Him? The Apostle John sees souls, not resurrected bodies, and these souls are reigning with Jesus Christ. The souls that John sees are those of the Saints who have already died and are currently in the presence of and reigning with God the Son. That reign will extend until Jesus Christ returns to the earth in power and glory, symbolically represented by the ‘one thousand years’, an extended but definite period of time.


    2. What does Scripture mean when it speaks of the ‘first resurrection’?

    If we search the Scriptures, in fact if we search secular history, we will read of only one person who died and came to life never to die again. That person was Jesus Christ. The Apostle Paul preaching before King Agrippa declares:

    Acts 26:22,23, KJV
    22. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:
    23. That Christ should suffer, [and] that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.


    Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. It is true that the Bible, both Old and New Testaments, records accounts of people being raised from the dead:

    1. The son of the widow of Zarephath restored to life by the prophet Elijah[1 Kings 17:22].
    2. The son of the Shunammite woman restored to life by the prophet Elisha[2 Kings 4:35]..
    3. The dead man restored to life at the touch of Elisha’s bones [2 Kings 13:21].
    4. Jairus’ daughter restored to life by Jesus Christ [Matthew 9:25, Mark 5:22].
    5. The son of the widow of Nain restored to life by Jesus Christ [Luke 7:15].
    6. Lazarus of Bethany restored to life by Jesus Christ [John 11:44].
    7. The disciple Tabitha, or Dorcas, of Joppa [Acts 9:40] was restored to life by the Apostle Peter.
    8. The young man Eutychus [Acts 20:9-12] was restored to life by the Apostle Paul.

    Although Scripture is silent about the further lives of these people, they did not have a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and they all died again consistent with Paul’s statement to King Agrippa. It is also true that Matthew 27:52,53 states that:

    Matthew 27:52,53, KJV
    52. And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
    53. And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


    However, there is absolutely no indication in Scripture that these Saints possessed a resurrection body like that of Jesus Christ and that they ascended to heaven. It is my belief that these bodies returned to the grave to await the general resurrection. This interpretation is supported by the following Scripture:

    1 Corinthians 15:23, KJV
    23. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    What is the significance of the resurrection of Jesus Christ to the redemption of man and what does John mean when he writes: This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power. Note that we read here the fifth of seven blessings promised in the book of Revelation to the Saints of God.

    The Apostle Paul addresses the significance of the resurrection in his letter to the church at Corinth.

    1 Corinthians 15:17,18, KJV
    17. And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
    18. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.


    The resurrection of Jesus Christ is the ground of the new birth [that which is spiritually dead is made alive] and is the surety of the bodily resurrection of the believer. Without the resurrection of Jesus Christ there is no hope for the believer, we are yet in our sins and those who are dead have perished. It is only because of the resurrection of Jesus Christ that John can speak of those souls who sit on thrones. His resurrection validates the teaching that believers have passed from spiritual death into eternal life [John 3:16, 5:25, 11:25], who upon physical death will immediately go into the presence of the Saviour [Luke 16:22, Romans 14:8]. These souls, priests of God and of Christ, live and reign [2 Timothy 2:12, 1 Corinthians 6:2, Revelation 3:21] with Jesus Christ from heaven during this present dispensation on the basis of the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Thus the remark: This [is] the first resurrection.


    3. Who are those who have part in the first resurrection; why are they blessed and holy?

    As noted above Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only one to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who have been regenerated, who have been rescued from spiritual death, through the power of the Holy Spirit and are saved through the finished work of Jesus Christ. The Apostle John records the teaching of Jesus Christ regarding those who have part in the first resurrection as follows :

    John 5:24-26, KJV
    24. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
    25, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;


    John 11:25, KJV
    25. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    In these passages the Lord is, in effect, teaching the rebirth, the spiritual resurrection, of the believer. The soul that undergoes this rebirth can never die, will never experience the second death. There are some who believe that this spiritual rebirth is the ‘first resurrection indicated in Revelation 20:4-6. However, this interpretation does not satisfy the content of the passage. The spiritual rebirth is the an event that takes place during this life of those who are chosen to salvation.

    I say again: Those who have part in the first resurrection are the elect of God, those who are redeemed to Him through faith in resurrected Saviour. Blessed and holy indeed are those who have part in the first resurrection. Blessed because they are heirs and joint heirs of God with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17], an inheritance that includes eternal life. Holy through of the righteousness imputed to them through Jesus Christ. They have been set apart, sanctified, through the Holy Spirit [1 Corinthians 6:11]. Over these the second death has no power, rather theirs is life eternal [John 3:14-16, John 17:3, Romans 6:23].

    The Apostle Paul writes of the spiritual resurrection, regeneration, or spiritual rebirth, as follows:

    Ephesians 2:4-7, KJV
    4. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
    5. Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
    6. And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
    7. That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.


    When we were dead in sins, spiritually dead, God made us alive together with Jesus Christ and raised us up to sit with Him in heavenly places, a spiritual resurrection. There is a sense in which the believer now sits in heavenly places with the Saviour, that is, the spiritual communion between the believer and the Father through Jesus Christ . This promise is further realized in the death of the believer and will be fully realized when redemption is complete with the resurrection of the body. However in the meantime while the deceased saints await the resurrection of the body John tells us: Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The view of Philip Edgecumbe Hughes [The Book of Revelation, page 214] is similar to that presented above though much more eloquent:

    “In the whole of the New Testament there is only one resurrection of such central importance that it qualifies without rival to be designated the first resurrection, and that is the bodily resurrection of Jesus from the dead. This particular resurrection, indeed, is determinative of the general or second resurrection. The relation of the first to the second resurrection is that of the firstfruits to the full harvest, for, as St. Paul affirms, Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep [1 Corinthians 15:20]. The supreme significance of this resurrection impels the apostle to insist that if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain . . . and you are still in your sins [1 Corinthians 15:14, 17]. The unique bond between the first resurrection and the person of the incarnate Son is that of identity, so much so that he declared of himself: I am the resurrection and the life: he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die [John. 11:25].

    This is the first resurrection in which the Christian believer has a part because through its power, even though he died, he in soul lives and reigns with the incarnate Son who is now risen, ascended, and glorified. The first resurrection of which he partakes is not in himself but in Christ. His participation is entirely due to his union with Christ, and his union with Christ is a reality because the human nature which the Son took to himself in the incarnation is one with the human nature of those he came to redeem. Their living and reigning with him is interpreted by their incorporation into him. What happened to him happened to our human nature. His rising is our rising; his ascending is our ascending; his glorification is our glorification. Hence St. Paul's assertion that even when we were dead through our trespasses God made us alive together with Christ ... and raised us up with him and made us sit with him in the heavenly places [Ephesians 2:5f.]. And so it is that in this period between the first resurrection and the second resurrection the souls of those who have died in the Lord [Revelation 14:13] live and reign with him, precisely because they have a part in the first resurrection, which is not their resurrection but the true bodily resurrection of the incarnate Son.”

    The Apostle Paul aptly clarifies the significance of the first and second resurrections in 1 Corinthians 15:16-26. Note that though Paul is speaking specifically about the Saints, the resurrection of the unsaved is implied in Verses 24-26.

    We noted at the beginning of the discussion of Revelation 20:4-6 that the passage teaches, or implies, two resurrections. It has been demonstrated above that the first resurrection, and the only resurrection to date, is that of Jesus Christ. The second resurrection, though not so called, is the general resurrection of all the dead, both the saved and the unsaved [John 5:28, 29], that will occur when Jesus Christ returns in power and glory as King of Kings and Lord of Lords. There are differing interpretations of Revelation 20:4-6, however, any interpretation of this passage must be such that it does not conflict with other Scripture, in particular John 5:28, 29 in which a literal interpretation is indicated [i.e., is not written in symbolic or apocalyptic language] as discussed below.

    John also tells us But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. Who are the rest of the dead? John has been speaking of the souls of those who will reign with Jesus Christ. The rest of the dead are those who died in Adam [Romans 5:14, 1 Corinthians 15:22] and who have not been redeemed to God through the blood of Jesus Christ. Though some of these may be physically alive they are spiritually dead, dead in sin, unless and until they are made alive in Jesus Christ [John 5:24, 25; Ephesians 2:1-6]. At the return of the Lord in power and glory these dead will be judged before the Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire [Revelation 20:11-15].

    The most clear and most significant passage in all of Scripture regarding the general resurrection is a teaching by the Lord Jesus Christ, as recorded by the Apostle John:

    John 5:28,29, KJV
    28. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
    29. And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.


    This passage is very straightforward with nothing to indicate that it is to be interpreted any way other than literally. The teaching of John 5:28, 29 is that in the same hour, this brief, specific period of time, all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, And shall come forth. What else can this mean but a general resurrection, a resurrection that will include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age.

    To summarize the above discussion we note that Jesus Christ, in prophecy and in history, was the first and only person to rise from the dead to die no more. Those who have part in the first resurrection are those who have been born again [John 3:7], that is, undergone spiritual resurrection [John 5:25] through faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ [John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8,9; Romans 10:9]. The second resurrection will be include everyone, saved and lost, at the return of Jesus Christ and the end of the age. It follows then that only those who have been born again, who have part in the first resurrection can be considered blessed and holy [Revelation 20:6, KJV]. Those who do not have part in the first resurrection, those who through unbelief have rejected Jesus Christ and His sacrificial death, stand condemned before God and will experience the second death.
     
  5. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    Take a look at the chart below, it explains, "in sequence" each event, mind you, I can "prove this" more ways than you can imagine, and only "TWO WITNESSES" are required to "establish the matter".

    [​IMG]

    Now, take a look at the "FEAST DAY" and how they "Correspond" to the above chart.

    [​IMG]

    They are the same chart, and the "events" in the NT occurred on the "EXACT DATES" given for the "CORRESPONDING FEAST", i.e. Jesus crucified on the "Passover".

    The last feast, Feast of Tabernacles, (Living with God) begins the MK, or 7th day, actually, since the church is "INDWELLED" by the "SPIRIT", we have already begun the "Feast of tabernacles" or "living with God", another reason we "PASSOVER" the tribulation period.

    At the present, I don't think you're aware of how the OT and NT are "Connected", the OT was a "SCHOOL MASTER" to teach about the NT.

    Understanding the OT is too understand the NT. [​IMG]
     
  6. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    OLD REGULAR

    Are you part of the "Association of Old Regular Baptist" located between "Jenkins-Elkhorn city", KY??

    Do you know of/associated with that organization??
     
  7. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Me4Him

    A lot of folks are smitten by so-called numerology in the Bible, others see secret messages in the text of Scripture. I would remind you of the purpose of this thread as pointed out in the OP which I repeat for your edification.

    I have posted on a number of threads the following Doctrines regarding the Second Coming of our Lord Jesus Christ as they have been held throughout Baptist History until some Baptists were seduced by the Darby/Scofield error called dispensationalism. I do not believe that any dispensationalist has as yet given any response to justify discarding historic, and most importantly Biblical Doctrine, in order to embrace dispensational error.
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    My people on my fathers side were all Old Regular Baptists. Several were preachers. I have been in SC since 1960 so am not affiliated with the Old Regilar Baptists.

    There are a number of Associations of Old Regulat Baptists in Southwest Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and Southern West Virginia. There are some Old Regular Baptist churches in Michigan, Florida, and Washington state as the result of migration. There used to be an Old Regular Baptist church in Kingsport.

    Also if you look on the History Forum you should find an Old Regular thread.
     
  9. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: "I do not believe that any dispensationalist has as yet given any response to justify discarding historic, and most importantly Biblical Doctrine, in order to embrace dispensational error."

    Your problem is that there are no 'dispensationalists'
    as you describe 'dispensationalist'.

    I fully agree with your historic confessions,
    none of which preclude the non-dispensational
    pretribualtion raputre/resurrection. Like the current
    Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) churchs have
    a confession that waffles on eschatology and is
    a statement that all manner of eschatologies can
    agree with.

    Thus there are no dispensationalists
    on this board with whom to argue
    and you have lost the argument anyway, so i doubt
    you will ever find what you want and quesiton why
    you wanted it in the first place ;)
     
  10. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    My people on my fathers side were all Old Regular Baptists. Several were preachers. I have been in SC since 1960 so am not affiliated with the Old Regilar Baptists.

    There are a number of Associations of Old Regulat Baptists in Southwest Virginia, Eastern Kentucky, and Southern West Virginia. There are some Old Regular Baptist churches in Michigan, Florida, and Washington state as the result of migration. There used to be an Old Regular Baptist church in Kingsport.

    Also if you look on the History Forum you should find an Old Regular thread.
    </font>[/QUOTE]I live where the "three state", KY, VA, TN, all converge, "Cumberland Gap", and am quite familar with the region within a 150 miles or so.

    The area around Hazard Ky has many old regular baptist churches, with their "Convention HQ" on Rt 197 between Jenkins-Elkhorn City, Ky, very near the VA line.

    I think they may have been where the term, "HARD SHELL BAPTIST" originated, "Mountain folks" don't like to "change ways". [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are mistaken, they all teach a general resurrection and judgment. Go back and read them again. Pretrib rapture was unknown until the Darby era!
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Me4Him

    I don't know if Hardshell originated with them but I sure heard it used a lot. Freewill Baptists were referred to as Softshell.
     
  13. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    My dictionary defines: "Dispensation" as:

    1. The system by which anything is administered/Management.

    2. The ordering of event under divine authority, any religious system.

    I don't believe any will disagree that the "System" of leadership under the OT changed when Jesus came.

    Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John:

    or that "Leadership" was transferred to JESUS.

    Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

    2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,

    For two thousand years the Jews have rejected the "leadership" of the "COMFORTER", Jews require a "SIGN", (and wonders) this one of the reasons why the "Comforter" is taken out of the way, (rapture) before Israel returns back under the system of "Law and Prophet" (two witnesses) during the trib.

    Few recognize what the scriptures teach, and that is:

    Leadership by both "law and prophet" and "Comforter" (Holy Ghost)

    DO NOT FUNCTION AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME TIME FRAME


    Just as the "law and prophet" stopped when Jesus came, (Holy Ghost/comforter) the HG will have to be removed before the "law and prophet" will return.
     
  14. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Me4Him

    What is the Scriptural justification for asserting the "law and prophet" will return? Also the Holy Spirit was not absent in the Old Testament.
     
  15. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    First, Jews in the OT did not have a "Comforter", (Holy Ghost=Jesus voice, my sheep hear my voice)

    Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.

    The present of the "comforter", who is greater than Satan, puts "POWER" on the side of the CHURCH, this is why satan must "FLEE" when we "resist him" and can't "PREVAIL over the church. (Jesus's body)

    AFTER the comforter is "taken out of the way", (Rapture) "POWER" to "prevail over the saints return to "SATAN", he is given "dominion over all kindren, tongues and nations, even to make war with the saint and "PREVAIL" over them.

    The "TWO WINESSES" (Moses/Elijah) will perform many "Signs and wonders" during the trib, but so will the False Prophet, calling fire down from heaven in the sight of men.

    "FAITH" will still be the "Deciding factor".

    Jesus said he would not give any "Signs", save the sign of Jonas.

    Jonas was a "prophet" from "GALILEE", spend three days in the whale, preached to the Gentiles at Nineveh, but Jews claim NO PROPHET comes from Galilee according to scripture.

    Joh 7:52 They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

    The "Comforter" (Spiritual voice of Jesus, which Jews reject) is unique to the "Church".
     
  16. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    OldRegular: "Pretrib rapture was unknown until the Darby era!"

    OldRegular: " ... they have been held throughout Baptist
    History until some Baptists were seduced by the Darby/Scofield
    error called dispensationalism.

    Wait?! is it called "pretrib rapture" or "dispensationalism"?
    Please coordinate your attack up on good Eschatology. Thank you.
     
  17. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    I think you might find this interesting.

    First Corinthians 12 27,
    Now ye are the body of Christ.

    Romans 8 29,
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be
    conformed to the image of his Son.

    Let’s look at some of the ways the church will conform to Jesus’s image.


    Jesus, was the Son of God.
    Matthew 8 29,
    Jesus, thou Son of God.

    Christians, are Sons of God.
    John 1 12,
    to them gave he power to become the sons of God.



    Jesus, spoke the words of God.
    John 3 34,
    For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God:

    Christians, speak the words of God.
    John 17 8,
    For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me.



    Jesus, possessed the Holy spirit.
    John 3 34,
    for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

    Christians, possesses the Holy Spirit.
    Luke 11 13,
    your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him.



    Jesus, was the Light of the world.
    John 9 5,
    I am the light of the world.

    Christians, are the light of the world.
    Matthew 5 14,
    Ye are the light of the world.


    Jesus, performed the Works of God.
    John 9 4,
    I must work the works of him that sent me.

    Christians, perform the Works of God.
    John 14 12,
    He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also.



    Jesus, had the Righteousness of God.
    Romans 10 4,
    For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness.

    Christians, Have the Righteousness of God.
    Romans 3 22,
    Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ

    unto all and upon all them that believe.


    Jesus, was God's Representative.
    Matthew 10 40,
    he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

    Christians, are God's Representatives
    Matthew 10 40,
    He that receiveth you receiveth me.


    Jesus, Crucified for salvation.
    Matthew 27 35,
    And they crucified him.

    Christians, Crucified for salvation.
    Romans 6 6,
    Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him.


    Jesus, sin had no dominion over Jesus.
    Second Corinthians 5 21,
    For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin.

    Christians, sin has no dominion over Christians.
    Romans 6 14,
    For sin shall not have dominion over you.


    Jesus, was Rapture off the earth.
    Acts 1 9,
    he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    Christians, will be Rapture off the earth.
    First Thessolonians 4 17,
    Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together
    with them in the clouds.


    Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
    Luke 18 33,
    and the third day he shall rise again.

    Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
    Romans 6 5,
    we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

    Jesus promised to be back on earth, in three days.
    John 2 19,
    Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it
    up.
    These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day. (First resurrection)


    Jesus, received a Glorified body.
    Acts 2 31,
    neither his flesh did see corruption.

    Christians, will receive a Glorified Body.
    First Corinthians 15 53,
    For this corruptible must put on in corruption.


    Jesus, Presented his Body a living sacrifice before God.
    1Co 5:7 For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

    Christians, present their body.
    Romans 12 1,
    that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God.


    Jesus, will inherit the universe.
    First Peter 3 22,
    Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God;
    angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

    Christians, will inherit the universe.
    Romans 8 17,
    And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.


    Jesus, will Reign over the earth.
    Habakkuk 2 14,
    For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD,
    as the waters cover the sea.

    Christians, will Reign over the earth.
    Revelations 20 4,
    and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


    The title, Son of God, conferred on Christians,
    entitled them to sit on the right hand of God, along with Jesus.

    Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,


    As Jesus presented only his body before God,
    so will only his body, the Church,
    be presented before God at the lamb’s marriage supper.

    this lamb’s marriage supper occurs during the tribulations period,
    while God is making the earth Jesus’s footstool.

    Luke 20 42,
    And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord,
    Sit thou on my right hand,
    Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.


    These are just some of the ways Christians conform to Jesus’s image.

    And Satan can never "PREVAIL" over the "TYPE OF PERSON" we become when saved.
     
  18. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Me4Him

    The question was: What is the Scriptural justification for asserting the "law and prophet" will return?
     
  19. DeafPosttrib

    DeafPosttrib New Member

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    Me4Him,

    Do you understand what Christ said while he was on the cross- "It is finished."? - John 19:30

    You seems not answer straight to OldRegular's question. Please answer the specific clear verse from the Bible to prove his question.

    In Christ
    Rev. 22:20 -Amen!
     
  20. Me4Him

    Me4Him New Member

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    I'm at a "lost" as to exactly what you're asking here??

    I'll take a "Shotgun" approach, and maybe I'll "hit it".

    As posted above, Satan can't have "power" over the church because of the "Comforter's" presents, HE must be taken out of the way".

    2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

    8 And then
    shall that Wicked be revealed,

    Once the "Comforter" is "raptured", then the "TWO WITNESSES", Moses/Elijah appear, bearing "WITNESS" of Jesus, the same as they did on Mt of Transfiguration.

    These two will reproduce many of the "Signs and wonders" of "Egypt/OT", keep in mind Jesus said "HE" (=Holy Ghost) would not give any signs.

    Re 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

    4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

    5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

    6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: (Elijah) and have power over waters to turn them to blood, (Moses/Egypt) and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

    Since there is much "confusion" about their ID, I should point out that there is ONLY TWO, not three (Enoch) as many "assume".

    MOSES was the "LAW GIVER".

    ELIJAH was the "Prophet",

    Hence, "LAW AND PROPHET".

    Did I answer your question???
     
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