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The Self-Centered God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Rippon, May 19, 2007.

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  1. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    What? I apologize but this makes no sense to me. By my definition God is God, and he is free. But that does not mean that he can do anything. It means he can do anything that is a proper object of his power. Therefore, he cannot make a rock so big he can't move it, or a square circle. That is absurdity, not theology.


    You see freedom does not mean the ability to do anything. Let's try another example: Can God cease to exist? No, of course not. So then he is not free because there is something he cannot do?
     
  2. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Webdog, you wrote:



    I have to take issue with your above statement. Hebrews clearly says Jesus went to the cross for the JOY Hebrews 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.

    Why did Jesus go to the cross? Joy. His own joy.

    Now, if Jesus did, in fact, go to the cross for His joy, as Hebrews says, well…couldn’t that be considered a bit self-centered?

    This discussion also begs the question: For whom did Jesus die? I’ll gladly admit what Scripture teaches—Jesus died for sinners. However, this is only the secondary reason. The primary reason Jesus died was to show God’s righteousness.

    Romans 3:25-26 talks about Jesus whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

    So, Jesus died, primarily, for God and His glory—to show God’s righteousness—and, secondarily, to save us.

    Blessings,

    The Archangel
     
  3. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    The "joy" wasn't going to the cross...but the result of going. You don't "endure" something you take joy in. I hardly call sweating blood (hematidrosis) due to extreme stress of the upcoming event Christ went through "joy".
     
    #83 webdog, May 22, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: May 22, 2007
  4. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    I hope...

    ...it will be instructive what I have been thinking on another thread.

    So do we really want to be comparing our Lord's character with the Greek gods?

    skypair
     
  5. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    No , we really don't want to compare our Lord's character to the Greek gods . You are the only one here guilty of that SP , so knock it off .
     
  6. psalms109:31

    psalms109:31 Active Member

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    Centered

    Jesus is centered on the Father and us the Father is centered on Jesus and others.

    Let us follow the example of God and be other centered in the end God will be praised.
     
  7. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    How would you like to refute the notion point-by-point then? You know --- kinda engage us with your wisdom instead of with your emotions. :saint:

    skypair
     
  8. windcatcher

    windcatcher New Member

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    I know sometimes I feel like a mouse in a laboratory, subject to the experiments, tests, and tasks which are set up by the Director of the lab. In a sense maybe this is true; I cannot control the circumstances of my environment in which I am placed: but I am given choices, and those choices may alter the environment or my progress within.

    Do we exist for God's entertainment? Do we exist only to bring Glory to God? his ways are higher than our ways and his thoughts exceed the wisest understandings amongst us: We are bound by our own deminsions to define or understand him. I can be certain of certain things about Him like his sovereignty, his love, his holiness, his justice, his promises, his knowledge of all things, his protection, his power, etc. but even my understanding is limited by my own experience and my perception within the deminsion in which I was created.

    I think God made us for relationship, to him and to each other. All the laws (I may need to think this deeper) regard relationship. The very laws of nature, i.e. can a circle be squared? ---regard relationship. However, God is not limited as we would think of limitations: Jesus, resurrected, still enters a room, passing in and out through its walls or doors, unseen, like no flesh we understand, yet he is real and present enough we can tenderly carress the hands that were pierced for us, and feel the deep wound in his side, where the fountain of his life poured forth to blot away our sin; and inside the room we hear his voice and feel his tenderness as he consoles us, and reminds us of our hope, and prays for and with us, and then we see him take the bread and divide it in our midst, and shares it with us. God makes the rules but is not bound by the rules: He is sovereign over all the laws of nature, and 'nature's natural laws' will bend at his pleasure: yes, if He chooses He can make a circle square .....if it suits his purpose and his will. One day he will transform this flesh from the corruptible to the incorruptible: One day, the law of gravity will lose its power and we will take flight. One day there will be no night to follow and all will be light.

    Rebellion is still in the heart, doubting, questioning, disputing, and it seems the mind is full of questions which go beyond that which is our business to know. I inquire, and then am humbled at the audacity within my being to question Him who has the right to be the end of my reasoning and the focus of my faith.
     
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Beautiful post! :applause:
     
  10. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    AMEN, windy!!

    Correct. Every miracle is an intervention from God and most are due to prayer. How many miracles have you had in your life. For me -- saved, a healed heart (32 years now!), the best job in a union career field while I was "blackballed" by the union, "prayed off" a strike here, several people saved, one man's life totally turned back to Jesus,... and those are just the "majors!" I pity those who only receive what they call "grace and mercy." I have a feeling that is merely consolation enough to accept fate is playing out poorly for them.

    This is not a good attitude. God gave the Bible for the express purpose that we should KNOW Him. I don't say you find it by your own reasoning but you may inquire (unless you are like the children of Israel and have some idol between youself and God). This is the wonderful thing about confession --- when we confess our idolatry, God will hear and answer.

    skypair
     
  11. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It was wrong over there too. Why would you post it over here? You need to distinguish between fact and belief. That you believe something is not the same thing as making it a fact. I am not sure you grasp that.
     
  12. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    Larry, I know your "ox is being gored" but take a look at the comparisons. How different is a Greek god of fates and our God who "wills" everything we do and we do nothing but by His will even when we sin?

    Or can you compare? Do you know anything about Greek mythology?

    Do you know how vain the Greed gods were? What is the difference between them and our God if all He seeks is His own glory and pleasure? And how different if He damns most of mankind for just those purposes?!

    Their gods birthed "demigods," Larry. Men who were born of sometimes incestuous relatiohships between gods and godesses or gods and men. These "demigods" made no choices to be superhuman (like Hercules) -- they were born to it, like Calvin's "elect."

    See, I don't know where it comes from either. Was it Augustine, Calvin's "spiritual mentor," who lived in Alexandria (named for the Greek Emporer) under Greek and Plato's influence? See, I'm trying to comprehend why they seem so closely related.

    skypair
     
  13. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    It's not my ox. It's the bible.

    My theology comes from Scripture, not from Greek gods. I don't konw much about Greek mythology because I would rather study the one true and living God through his revelation to us.

    Did you ever stop to think that perhaps the Greek gods were as you say becuase they were a distortion of the true God? I don't know whether you are right or wrong about Greek gods. I don't really care. But there is a perfectly logical explanation for it. All false religions are based on man's rejection of God as he has revealed himself.
     
  14. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    That's cool. My own awareness is strictly high school stuff.

    Oh, absolutely! So is Satan!!

    Well then I ask you -- from my description of them, does the God of Calvin resemble the gods of Greece? Surely I have at least outlined 2 models for comparison, right?

    skypair
     
  15. Pastor Larry

    Pastor Larry <b>Moderator</b>
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    Who is the "them"? Your description of the "God of Calvin" does not resemble the God of Calvinists very much. The God that I believe in, that I have found through Scripture does not resemble the gods of Greece as you have describe them.
     
  16. skypair

    skypair Active Member

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    OK, I accept that. It wasn't a good line of reasoning to enter into on my part -- valid, maybe, but not useful. It wasn't "tested" as I had hoped it would be. Ah, well. :saint:

    skypair
     
  17. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    From Nehemiah 9:5

    ... Blessed be your glorious name , and may it be exalted above all blessing and praise .
     
  18. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    The scriptural proclamations and demands that God makes toward His creatures proves to me that He is indeed self centered.

    His provision of Jesus Christ to fulfill/supply those impossible demands prove to me that He is also love.

    Christ's obedience to the death on the cross proves that He is ultimate humility.

    So, though He is totally self centered, His love and humility keep Him from telling us how wonderful He is.

    THAT IS OUR JOB... and it's the most heart warming, self-satisfying job I know how to do.

    Psalm 86:15 But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.

    HankD
     
  19. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Hank , what did you mean when you said that God's "love and humility keep Him from telling us how wonderful He is " ? Where did you get that notion ? Is God bashful or something ? The Bible gives no such teaching . The Lord has never held back about declaring how wondereful He is .
     
  20. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    It's going to take an industrial size drum of white-out to modify my Bible so that it fits this assertion.
     
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