The seven churches

BGTF I believe much of what you have said in your last post, but the biggest area of disagreement would be that this "newness" grows without exception.

I think it "should" grow, but again our maturation is not a guarantee. We should grow up in the Lord day by day, even moment by moment, but it is not guaranteed that we will unfortunately.

I like you believe the Bible teaches there is a better way and that is by looking unto Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith. But if we don't look He's not going to finish. We have the Power to overcome the bondage to sin, but we have to plug oursleves into that Power source. That Power is not automatic.

And you are exactly right that this has been an issue over time.

 

Well James certainly seems to indicate that it can be "dead" and not growing.

Now I could agree that it is growing just because something that is alive does grow, but just because it grows does not mean it matures. A baby will "grow" I suppose if you just feed them milk, but at somepoint if that baby does not move past the milk it will not develop properly and would probably even die.

I guess the bottom line of what I'm trying to say is that not "all" saved people are going to be found acceptable when they stand at the JSOC and there will be consequences that they must face at that time for their lack of growth.

And it is this lack of understanding and false teaching regarding the JSOC that causes people not to care about their growth or think they are growing when really they aren't.

 

I believe John Macarthur nailed the 7 churches...

"Now listen very carefully to what I say. These are seven real churches. They really existed. They existed in those cities that they're stated to exist in. And if you study the letters in detail you find that each letter fits the historical cultural geographical context of the city to which it was written. It's a literal city. But they are also representative churches because each one of them has a unique character all its own and it represents churches of all times because each of them is a special kind of church. And in all the periods of the history of the church there have always been these kinds of churches. And each of them gets a special message from the Lord. So this is His ministry, as it were, to the church age.

The first one is to Ephesus. What kind of church is Ephesus? It is the church that is orthodox in doctrine, but cold. It's left its first love. Verse 4, "I have somewhat against you because you've left your first love." Verse 5, "Remember therefore from where you are fallen, repent and do the first works." Now this is the church that's orthodox. I mean, they have the right doctrine. Verse 2 it says they couldn't bear evil people, they couldn't bear false apostles and teachers. And they endured faithful to the sound doctrine but they lost their love. They were cold and orthodox. Now that kind of church has existed in every age and does today. Those who have got the right message they're just cold and indifferent about it.

The second church we meet is the Smyrna church, verses 8 to 11. This is the church that suffers persecution. And in verse 10 it says, "None of those things...fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer. Behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, you may be tried. You shall have tribulation ten days..." ten days signifies a brief period of time..."be faithful unto death and I'll give you a crown of life." Nothing negative is said against this church. Why? Because a church under persecution will always be a pure church, it's purged by the persecution. People who are just showing up for whatever reason once persecution starts get out. Cause if they don't have anything to die for, they're not going to stay around and get killed in the massacre. So this is the church under persecution. And at all periods of the church's history there have been those churches and there are such churches today. We're going to hear about one in the service following tonight when we hear Georgi Vins tell us about the church in Soviet Union.

The third letter is written to the church in the town of Pergamum, or Pergamos. And this is in chapter 2 verse 12 through 17 and this is the church married to the world. This is the worldly church. And he describes their worldliness down through verse 15 and then in verse 16 he says, "Repent, or else I'll come unto thee quickly and fight against them with the sword of My mouth." This is the church Christ fights against, the church that is married to the world. And in all periods of the church's history there are worldly churches where the people don't come out from the world, where they cater to the world, where they accommodate the world, where they go along with everything that's happening in society.

Then the Lord has a message to a fourth kind of church represented by the Thyatira assembly in chapter 2 verse 18 to 29. Thyatira is the church that tolerates sin. In this particular church they tolerated a Jezebel-like woman who was seducing servants to commit fornication and eat things sacrificed to idols. And so they're warned because they're a church that tolerates sin, a church that wouldn't discipline sin, a church that wouldn't purify its ranks. And there are always churches like that.

And then in chapter 3 we're introduced to the fifth church, Sardis. Easy to see what was wrong in this church. Verse 1 says, "Thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead." This is the dead church...just dead. And it had a few things that were living, verse 2 says, but they were also ready to die...a dead church. You've seen such, maybe you came from one. Nothing happening, no life, no growth, no productivity, no fruit, no joy.

And then number 6, chapter 3:7 to 13, the church at Philadelphia. This is the faithful church. It says in verse 8 at the end, "You have kept My Word, have not denied My name." This is a church that had an open door and went through it. You might even see it as a missionary church. And so it is a faithful church and there are always those kind.

And then the final of the seven comes in chapter 3 verse 14 to the end of the chapter. That whole section deals with Laodicea, the apostate church, the unsaved church, the church of liberalism today. So, you see, each of these has a message. By the way, that church is characterized in verse 15, "I know thy works that thou art neither cold nor hot, I would thou weren't cold or hot, I wish you either against Me or for Me, He says, but because you're neutral in the middle I'll spew you out of My mouth. A rejected false church."

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/GC1290.HTM

 

AMEN! But folks these days don't want to move past the milk. And the folks that do can't agree what the meat and the strong meat of the Word are.

If you need to see if anything that I say is correct or not you need just go to the Scriptures. What I say matters not. The ONLY thing that matters is what does Scripture say about the matter.

Frankly you are talking about trying to do something that only God can do. You can't cut me open and see into my heart. Only God an do that. You can view my fruit and determine whether or not I am a false teacher, but that's about as far as you can go .

By the way no interuptions is an impossibility on this board at least as far as I have seen. That's why I have offered on NUMEROUS occasions for folks to take discussions offline, because threads take off in so many different directions so quickly it's not even funny, ESPECIALLY when dealing with the meat and strong meat of the Word!

 

I really have no idea what you are getting at here. Do you honestly think you are an "instrument" that God is going to use to see into someone's heart?

You have more faith than I do :laugh:.

That is a question that can not be answered with 100% accuracy, because it could change.

Because the final analysis is not until after my race is over and since I'm still breathing and typing my race isn't over yet. Who knows if I will finish or not. I hope and pray that I will!

 

It seems rather evident to me. The author and his readers were not of those that draw back unto perdition, but were of those that believed to the saving of their souls.

Again it seems rather obvious to me as you highlighted and underline the key word. It is the author and his readers that were not appointed to wrath, but to obtain salvation.

Wonder what salvation already "saved" folks still had to obtain?

The problem is that Christendom tries to write itself into almost all passages regardless of audience. They think if a saved person is mentioned then that passage relates to "all" saved people regardless of anything else in their lives and that's simply not the case.

 

BGTF sorry for the delay in getting back with you. I have had some MAJOR fires to put out with my business over the last few days even though I have logged on to read some threads I haven't been able to answer much if any.

Anywho the text does not say that they have been delivered, but that they were not appointed. I'm not appointed unto wrath, but unto a salvation that awaits at the end of my faith according to I or II Peter I can't remember which right now off the top of my head.

However I can not escape God's judgment whether I am a good servant or a bad servant. And there are consequences for whichever I choose to be. If I choose to die to self and allow the Holy Spirit to work in and through me then I will hear well done My good and faithful servant. If I choose to live for self and not allow the Holy Spirit to work in my life I will not only not hear those words, but I will be paid according to my labors.

The reward at the JSOC is not all positive. There will be some not so positive rewards handed out as well as suffering loss.

Hope that helps!

 

By this conversation, J.Jump, you demonstrate that:
1. You have no assurance of salvation.
2. a denial of eternal life (eternal life does not stop for a thousand years or else it could not be eternal).
3. a denial of the sufficiency of the blood of Christ to atone for all of your sins.

With these conclusions, one can only assume that your doctrine is indeed heresy.

 

And with this post DHK you continue to prove that one you either still don't have a clue as to what we are "really" talking about or two that you do and you don't care and are just interested in espousing falsities in order to keep people from studying out for themselves.

Everlasting life (eternal salvation as some call it - grace through faith apart from works) is ABSOLUTELY secure. BobRyan will back me up on this as he and I have gone round and round about the issue of eternal security. Your "gift" of everlasting life is something that can NEVER be taken away and it is something that can NEVER be forfeited. Scripture is rather plain in this teaching.

I don't deny eternal life at all. I just use the Scriptural definition of "eternal" and not man's definition. Eternal is aionios in the Greek and no one has ever been able to show that it means without end and/or without beginning and without end. And I have asked for a few months now.

The word is an adjective that comes from aion, which means age. An age definitely has a beginning and it definitely have an end. So if you want to continue to think that you "eternal" life that is "supposed" to last forever and ever and ever is aionios then you are more than welcome to that belief. However I believe the life that God "gave" me is everlasting and not aionios.

I don't know how many times I have answered your third response and I know you have read my responses, but you just keep on keep'in on with the nonsense that you are espousing here (that should be a hint as to whether you have a clue or not and what your intentions are by the way).

Christ's blood is ABSOLUTELY/PERFECTLY sufficient. However just becuase Christ's blood is ABSOLUTELY/PERFECTLY "capable" of something does NOT mean it is also 100% guaranteed to carry out that capability.

I John 1:9 - IF we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us.

I'm not sure why folks want to act as though that little word does not exist in the text. It does and it's there for a reason.

It means we can not confess. And if we don't our sins will not be forgiven. Thefore even though Christ's blood is ABSOLUTELY and PERFECTLY capable of covering my sin it's not going to if I don't confess.

Now maybe this time you will want to address my question that no one else has cared to address and that is why do I have to confess something for forgiveness that God has supposedly already forgiven? That makes ZERO sense.

If I have to confess something to be forgiven which has already been forgiven that means the first time wasn't good enough. That is NOT the description of a PERFECT God.

 

Sorry BGTF I totally missed your post. And I guess we were talking about a different verse.

The verse that you have put forward is interesting in that just reading the "English" translation of the text one would think this "deliverance" has "already" taken place. It reads as if the action has taken place in the past.

However the verb is a "present" tense verb not a past tense verb. Jesus "is delieving" us from the wrath to come.

And this deliverance is not for all people. Paul makes it very clear who the "us" is in the preceeding verses. A lot of people in Christendom think that if Paul says something of himself or other faithful believers that it applies to "all" believers, but that simply is not the case.

I do however believe that I am currrently being delivered from the wrath to come, however that is not guaranteed to continue.

Hope that helps!

 

BobRyan is hardly a good ally in this subject area as he is SDA, believes in the annihilation of the wicked, and when it comes to Rev.20:10--"and the beast and the false prophet shall be cast into the lake of fire where the devil and his angels are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever.
--Bob denies that they will be tormented forever and ever.
He denies the everlasting punishment of the wicked.
Do you also accept this same heresy as he believes?

Eternal means eternal or everlasting, without end. It does not mean: eternal minus one thousand years, and then resume eternal again. It does not mean eternal life received; eternal life lost; eternal life regained. It simply means: the gift of God is eternal life without any conditions attached.

Yes it is ainoios. So what! Does that give you the perogative of making up your "J.Jump" definition contrary to every other translation. Do you know better than all 54 of the KJV translators and all of the other MV's that have come out since? That is some arrogance, JJ! Now what does the word really mean?

Well, what do you know!! J.Jump's definition of "eternal" or aioniios is not found in the most simple of Lexicons--Strong's. This is really basic. J.J. just makes up his own definitions to suit his own theology. Quite deceitful isn't it! Eternal means forever and vice-versa. It means without end. This is the word used in the most famous verse in the Bible--John 3:16, from whence I took the word.

Now let's see how this word is used in another context:
1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

With your definition J.Jump you have just committed the heresy that God is not eternal. You deny his eternality by limiting the word to an age. God will only exist for an age and then cease to exist because that is your limited definition of everlasting. The same word "aionios" is used.
So take your choice: Which position do you choose: Either God is eternal and man also is eternal. Or man is not eternal, and therefore God is not eternal either.