The smoking gun, of the Church’s birthday

Drive by posting here But it helps a lot to understand that some words can have multiple meanings.
Take for instance the word 'church' which, the word itself, was literally called an 'assembly'.

This word 'ekklesia' is used not only of NT churches but also used to describe secular and non-christian religious gatherings as well as gathering of those who worshipped the One True and Living God. Therefore the word itself is not enough to base any determining foundation as to when the 'NT' church existed.

There are qualification that determine what this word refers to. And when speaking of the church in the NT it is noted by the writters of scripture as something the never existed previously and thus there are certain things present in the this church that distiquishes it from other assemblies, including the OT assemblies/congregation. It is called the 'new man' (Eph 2:15) it is also decribed by various writers on many occassions, and consistanty as 'one body'. This is an important point as well when speaking of the passage in 1 Cor 12:13.
1 Corinthians 12:13—“For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.”

Thus we are presented with a couple of question:
1. How does one become a member of this body of Christ?
...Answer: Through Spirit baptism.
2. When did Spirit baptism come into play?
...Answer: (Mat 3:11) John the Baptist states he baptizes with water but Christ 'shall' baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Look also at Acts 1:5 in which Christ states that John indeep baptized with water but 'you' shall be baptized with the holy ghost not many days from now. Jesus took them back to Johns statement about concerning the identifier of this new baptism when it takes place so they will know that 'this' is the baptism spoken of by John and Jesus (with the Holy Spirit and 'fire')

And this Spirit baptism does just place them 'into' the body (New Man) but also places with them the Holy Spirit, making them one with Christ (being God in them and they in God)
And we see Jesus state to his disciples:
John 7:38-39 “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly [innermost being] shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)”

Peter makes and interesting statement in the book of Act (11:15) states 'in the beginning', the beginning of what? If the Church is a continuation of something (such as Israel) then it can not be a 'new' man, nor can it have a beginning in the NT more specifically a point that referred to 'after' Christ's ascension.

Another relevent point is this:
The Church has to be after the resurrection as well as after His Ascension.
According to Ephesians 1:19-23 we see the Father gave Christ to be the Head of the Church, but apparently He did this only after the resurrection and ascension. Can the Church exist apart from its Head? Therefore again we see the Church could not begin until after the ascension. a correlative verse is also John 7:39


These are some important points to help define 'this' particular 'assembly' from the others, which is known to us as the NT Church.

So here are three of these basic identifiers of the what constitutes a church body and therfore when it could have begun.

1. The resurrection and ascenssion of Christ has to have taken place that we might be:

2. Baptised/placed into Christ by the Holy Spirit.

3. In baptism we are also indwelt with the Holy Spirit.

4. Therefore unlike anything previously, we have become a 'new man'.


Lastly, in light of the above (and much more that I didn't have time to put down) Christ was not 'expanding' His church as someone inferred previously. But was 'going to' build (set up) His church. This can only be understood this way because the following sentence states - and (in addition to, or, along with this) the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. It not something added to but to yet be set up and distinct from anything already existing - a new man.

 

These concerns tend to surround an institutionalized concept of church. Bad idea.

 

I think we've all heard the old adage, "If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck, then it's a duck."

During Jesus earthly ministry, the little band of disciples

1. Assembled
2. Evangelized
3. Had Bible study.
4. Had preaching
5. Baptized
6. Observed the Lord's Supper.
7. Had power over demons
8. Healed the sick and other miracles.
9. Had instructions from the Head
10.Had teaching on church discipline.

What did this group in Jerusalem do after Pentecost?

1. Assembled
2. Evangelized
3. Had Bible study
4. Had preaching
5. Baptized
6. Observed the Lord's Supper
7. Had power over demons
8. Healed the sick and other miracles
9. Had instruction from the apostles taught by the Head
10.Had teaching on how to behave in church

If it acts like a church, looks like a church, has Christ as it's Head, then what we have is a ......

 

There is no place in the bible that says that the church has to be accepted by the government or that a church cannot protect itself by hiding. Jesus himself, left crowds to "hide" because his time for punishment hadn't yet come. In fact, when churches protect themselves that's called wisdom. Most of the early Christians lived in caves in Cappadocia to keep from all being killed so the church would not die out.

 

... conundrum, according to some folks. To us it is quite clear.

 

Well the Southern Baptist Faith and Message agrees with me. How about that?

The definition of the Church as presented in The Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000 is as follows [Section VI]:

“The New Testament also speaks of the church as the Body of Christ which includes all the redeemed of all ages, believers from every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation.”

 

Be Nice SN!:smilewinkgrin::tongue3::laugh::laugh:

 

It seems to me that in order to understand when the Church began we need to understand whose names are written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.[Revelation 13:8]

Of course the Southern Baptist Convention seems to understand but many Southern Baptists don't!

 

That sounds a lot like the same heresy Ituttut taught before he decided to leave. The only difference is a matter of degree. Ituttut did not want the Church to start until the Apostle Paul started it.

 

No, what he is saying is not the same as what Iuttut believes.
The message after pentacost was the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. What then was the message preached before that?

This is not ultradispensationalism (Or hyper). The fact of the matter is the distintion of the messages content.
What was the message for evangelizing?
What was the context of the preaching (bring proper understanding back to law or grace apart from the law)?
What was the group prior to Christs death 'batpized' in to, and what was the group after it bapised into? (they are different)

The message of salvation by grace through faith is the same but the means through which that message was conveyed and the assembly through whom it was conveyed are distinct and different.

 

The message before the cross was the same, although they did not understand about the death, burial, and resurrection.

But John the Baptist was teaching the people to believe on Jesus.

Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.

I do not think even John the Baptist understood the cross. But he understood Jesus was the promised Messiah, promised throughout OT scripture.

Matt 3:3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

The Jews expected the Messiah, but they did not understand the cross.

Deut 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

John 1:21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John 6:14 Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.

 

Either you misunderstood what I said, or, I did not do a good job in conveying my meaning.

The messages had a basic similar meaning but both had different content.
John the baptist spoke of Jesus as the Messiah fortold to come and thus told the people to look to/believe 'that' Jesus was that very person. But John did in fact preach in accordance with the OT law and having them come back to the obedience of and under the Law. Repent and obey God's laws and believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Thus though he spoke about the coming messiah (and Jesus when He was before him) his message was about returning/repenting and coming back to being God's people 'under' the law.

That was the whole point of the verse which paraphrased states 'preparing the way of the Lord and making it straight'.Refering to bringing the people back into the proper 'way' (religious life), so that the Lord work is straight forward. I agree that John the Baptist nor even the apostles (at that time) understood the cross much less His soon resurrection.

However NT writers message was about the cross and the resurrection (ie. the Sacrificial Lamb) which brought believers out from under the law and into grace. Christ could not be the messiah apart from being the Lamb which delivered them out of sin.

The message of evangelism was the 'Law' for the OT saints and John the baptist.

The message of evangelism was in the NT was the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The message being preached by OT saints and John the "B" was coming back to obedience of the Law and faith that they might be known as the children of God.

The message being preached by NT saints was that by faith we are the children of God known as such by our love for one another.

Baptism (it's meaning) prior to Christ resurrection was not the same as after it either.

IOW - same message of salvation by grace through, different content with respect to the Covenant/Testament (OT or NT) being addressed.

 

,Let's see. Ah yes, here it is. Mark 1:1 "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God." That's three-and-a-half years before Pentecost.

Um, let's see. They had the keys to the kingdom before Pentecost. (Matt 16:19)

They had Apostles, prophets and teachers in the church before Pentecost. So says I Cor 12:28 "God hath set some in the church; first Apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers." The apostles were first in the church--before Pentecost.

They had a church roll with 120 names on it (Acts 1) look at the chapter describing the election of Matthias to replace Judas. Peter says the group ("us") had existed since Jesus' baptism by John.

The bridegroom had his bride before Pentecost. John 3:29 "He that hath the bride (the church) is the Bridegroom (the Christ)."

Hebrews 2:12 says "I (Jesus) will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church I will sing praise unto thee." This is a quote of Psalm 22:22. When did he sing? Following the Lord's Supper: "...and when they had sung an hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives." (Mark 14:26)

Credit here goes to PastorJ. H. Thurman, who included these points in a tract published by Mid-Continent College, Mayfield, Kentucky. He also said in the tract that not one single scripture verse specifically says the church began at Pentecost.

Following is a story told by R. Charles Blair, Western Kentucky pastor and scholar in his book "Church on the Rock":

"One of our fine students at the Bible college where I teach was challenging the idea that Christ built his church during his earthly ministry. As he and I moved through the lunch line, I waited until he had his tray and food , and then said, “Enjoy your meal!” His immediately reply was, “I will!”, to which my response was, “But that’s future tense, and yet you already have the meal!”

 

You didn't happen to notice that Christ did not state "I have given them", right?
He said "I will give them.."

Not true, we never see the word 'apostle' till Romans nor 'apostleship' till acts. The followers of Chrsit (even the twelve) are still called 'disciples' and will not be given 'apostlship' till 'after' the resurrection. Therefore NO apostles existed till after His resurrection and they were not permitted to go in their 'apostleship' till they had been given the Holy Spirit and empowered by Him as well.

First, the 'beginning' and 'ending' being spoken of here is speaking of Jesus Ministry on earth, and not about how long all those who followed were with Him. The point is that they with Christ Jesus during His ministry and therefore learned of/from Him.

Second, notice that this is the first time the word apostleship is given and that it corrisponds to the 'go' or sending out which was to be in Judas's place. Therefore what is most important to note and not pass over is that the 'go' here is directly refering to the Great commissioning or their sending forth and nothing prior to it. And that 'going' was not to take place until after they had to await for the giving and empowering of the Holy Spirit. They were commissioned to go but were forbidden as of yet because they were not yet ready. They still lacked the Holy Spirit and His power.

You do realize this is speaking of the betrothal stage in which they are engaged but still considered married. We can know this because the 'voice of the bridegroom' at which he/the friend rejoices refers to the bridegroom telling his best man "I am ready to go get my bride". And that is when the best man (so to speak) runs ahead of him proclaiming to all "the bridegroom comes to get His bride". This isn't speaking of have already obtained her but that He was going to get or collect her so they 'could be' married at the appointed time. And let us remember that this bride can not be made ready without the white garments of Christ which He gives/clothes her with, and that being from the shedding of His own blood to cleanse from all unrighteousness. He has to make her ready, and she could not be until after His death burial and resurrection.

First brother, I think you are lost on the translation here. Only the KJV translates (not even the NKJV does) it as 'church' all others state the 'congregation' or 'assembly'.

Secondly, you take great leaps and bounds here, or so it appears brother. Let me show you what I mean. Psa 22 which begins with Christ's cry, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" and details minutely His sorrows, and passes from Christ's sufferings to His triumph, though foreshadowed through David's experience.

The singing has nothing to do with the Lords supper but the triumph of it all when it is over. Just keep reading the passages in Hebrews and Psalms. Psa 22 23-25 speak as to what that song is about and the fact that it is already done.

The Hebrews passage, in context, is declaring that we are one with Christ and thus truely His brethren and God, Truly our Father just as He is Christ Jesus.

I appears, from context, he missed some things (IMO)

Bad point. The meal was being assembled in line but it was not yet his meal nor was it yet come into being. Only after it was assembled properly (as He wanted it) and 'made his own' through payment. Therefore his meal 'now' had come into being and only 'then' would he be able to enjoy what had was now His.

 

The question is not when Mark was saved, but what he wrote. There is a reason Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are called The Gospels. When Mark wrote The Gospel of Mark, he started at the beginning---the "beginning of the gospel."

 

And he said it to the assembled disciples. "Will give" the keys does not necessarily mean a couple of years down the road.

Even if I grant your point of "after the resurrection," it's still before Pentecost.

I find it interesting that in Acts 1:25, Peter says that Judas fell from the ministry and apostleship, which Matthias was to take. Ministry and apostleship--before Pentecost.

I like the way you put it. Betrothed but still considered married. Sort of like churches are betrothed. Waiting for the return of the bridegroom and the marriage supper. I also like the image of Christ clothing the bride with righteousness with the shedding of his blood. Shedding of blood which took place before Pentecost. This fits well with Paul's assertion in Acts 20:28 that Jesus shed his blood for the church at Ephesus.

I take that to mean that he shed his blood for my congregation and yours, and the one in existence when he shed his blood.

One of a church's identifying marks is that it assembles; it congregates. And according to Hebrews, the Messiah will sing iin the congregation. He sang in the congregation assembled the night before his crucifixion.

But he possessed it, and it existed prior to the payment. And the payment was made before Pentecost.

 

Luke 10:1-24
1. After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2. Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3. Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4. Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5. And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6. And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7. And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8. And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9. And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10. But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11. Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12. But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13. Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14. But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16. He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17. And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18. And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20. Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21. In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22. All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23. And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:
24. For I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

These disciples were preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, the same Gospel that Jesus Christ preached. Some can foolishly argue that these disciples did not mention the name of Jesus Christ, the Messiah, but they would be wrong as shown in Verse 17. Furthermore, though we don't often look to the Gospel of Luke for the doctrine of election we note that a little election is taught in verse 22.

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.