Featured The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still

err.. umm... 'no".

you provided this linkless, snippet quote of E7 "2 of their (RCC) positive beliefs: Trinity, and some "works" of obedience are necessary for salvation later"


I am not even sure it is a full sentence or what the subject is or what the point is in that snippet. I have no idea where it is from since you gave no link to this snippet-non-sentence and all we can tell for sure is that the phrase "salvation after grace" is found in your actual words - not in the snippet above.

You seem to want to dig that hole deeper.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The born again believer has both the sinful nature and the new-birth nature - which is why "by the Spirit" they must continually be "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" Romans 8.

And of course - the lost who have perished are always and forever not able to cross over to become saved saints as if the Gospel is for converting the dead. I think we both reject the idea of Purgatory.

1John 3 says that whoever is born of God "Purifies himself" that is an ongoing process.

1John 3 says that the definition of sin is "transgression of the Law" 1John 3:4.

And he says that the one born of God "does not sin".

Agreed. So while in our sinful human flesh we do sin - the new creation, the new nature is not what is desiring or calling for sin but rather our sinful nature.

"It is no LONGER I who am doing it - but SIN that dwells in me" can only be said of the saints - not of the lost because "no longer" tells us of "a change" - prior to salvation it is fully the lost person that is sinning. After salvation the new-creation new-birth nature does not choose sin - but the sinful nature still does.

We do not battle "our finger" or "our toes" or the eye lids etc ... we battle the passions and desires of the sinful nature.

Indeed. But we must "put to death the deeds of the flesh" a choice made by choosing to cooperate with the Holy Spirit and so we do that "By the Spirit". Romans 8

"Take not Thy Holy Spirit from me" Ps 51.
"Do not grieve the Holy Spirit by whom you were sealed" Eph 4:30
"Do not QUENCH the Spirit" 1Thess 5:19
"Do not blaspheme against the Holy Spirit" Matt 12
"They grieved the Holy Spirit, therefore He turned Himself against them to become their enemy" Is 63:10
"These things were written to us as a examples for us that we should not crave evil things as they did" 1 Cor 10

God's promises to the saved saint are many - as we see in Rev 3 "I STAND at the door and knock if ANYONE hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" is spoken to the church of Laodicea.

And "you have been Fallen FROM grace you have bee Severed FROM Christ" is the message to the church at Galatia.

And the message to us from Matt 18 "So shall My Father do to each one of you if you do not" -- in Christ's own "forgiveness revoked" sermon.

The lost do not have incorruptible pure natures while perishing or after they perish or at any point in the future. That is "no change".

But Rev 22 specifically points to " a change " where the lost no longer cross over and accept salvation - which is the only way that the filthy can become holy or righteous.

And the same goes for the saved not being lost - even you argued for Rev 22:10-11 as dealing with the subject of the saved being lost and the fact that it states this will not happen - in the event/condition being described by the text.

And that according to the text is future.

in Christ,

Bob

 

We already know that the lost who perishes today and since Adam's day- are never made holy or Righteous. No change.

You claim that the saved that can never become lost is already the state of things today -- no change.

But Rev 22 is not a "no change" message. Rather it is a "future change" message about what is coming.

You have turned it into "more - no-change" which does not do justice to the warning being given.

Rev 22:10-11 is in fact a dire warning about the future and clear light on the present.

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Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.

================================

If we water this all down into so much more "no change" from today - we delete the dire warning and the revelation about our current state.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In that case "graft them back AGAIN" to there NEVER saved state - would be "a bad thing".

The details here do not support the "never saved being asked to get saved for the first time" when it used "restore them AGAIN" language.

Let's read it.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

=====================================

Even your own POV admits that these who were "cut off" are lost whether or not they were ever saved before in your view. The text is unmistakably saying that the gentile who "Stands by your faith" is at risk of also being cut off - like those who were cut off - whom you admit are lost. The one point we agree on is that those who were cut off ARE lost and those who "stand by your faith" ARE saved.

Once those two basics are admitted to - OSAS does not survive. You cannot give this as a warning to the saved - if in fact they can never be in the position of those who were cut off.

The tradition of OSAS does not survive Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Paul points to OT saints as "saved" in Heb 11.

Paul says "The gospel was preached to us just as it was to them also" in Hebrews 4.

Paul tells Timothy that the scriptures he read as a child were sufficient to lead him to salvation.

There is no point in all of scripture were it is claimed that nobody was saved for the first 4000 years of earth's history.

Saved Gentiles and Jews together - where the Jews are the natural branches - that start out in Judaism.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

As Christ said in John 4 "salvation is of the Jews"

But all that aside - both you and I agree that in their fallen - removed - cast aside condition those Jews that were removed due to unbelief are most certainly in a lost condition.

That alone destroys the OSAS idea because Paul applies the same warning to the saved - that they will be put in the position of what you yourself admit is a lost person.

=====================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
In that case "graft them back AGAIN" to there NEVER saved state - would be "a bad thing".

The details here do not support the "never saved being asked to get saved for the first time" when it used "restore them AGAIN" language.

Let's read it.

Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

=====================================

Even your own POV admits that these who were "cut off" are lost whether or not they were ever saved before in your view. The text is unmistakably saying that the gentile who "Stands by your faith" is at risk of also being cut off - like those who were cut off - whom you admit are lost. The one point we agree on is that those who were cut off ARE lost and those who "stand by your faith" ARE saved.

Once those two basics are admitted to - OSAS does not survive. You cannot give this as a warning to the saved - if in fact they can never be in the position of those who were cut off.

The tradition of OSAS does not survive Romans 11.

============================

That would be numbers 11 now that you admit the Jews described there "are lost" because in the actual text this is the warning given to the Gentiles.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

 

I am reposting this recent exchange hoping it does not get lost in the shuffle because it deals with the Rev 22 text that is the subject of this thread.

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So this is "no change" from Adam. The lost who as you say "perish" as a lost person never change to become saved.

In your statement above you edit the Rev 22:10-11 statement about the future change - radical change - where the lost no longer accept the Gospel and the saved no longer fall from grace and are lost into "so much - no change from yesterday".

But Rev 22:10-11 is not a "no change from yesterday" statement.

That is a key Bible detail not to be ignored.


==========================
Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.

================================

If we water this all down into so much more "no change" from today - we delete the dire warning and the revelation about our current state.

No doubt a teaching can be repeated in scripture.

But the detail you are skipping past is that Rev 22 describes this as a future state - and you have edited it down to be so much "no change from the current state".

But in Rev 22 it is a predicted future condition. "The Time is Near" and "behold I come quickly" are in the same context in that chapter. It is an end time condition that is future.

Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”

By admitting that the OSAS part of this is what you would call OSAS - you have made the case in a Bible text that stated clearly - that this is a future change.

Because 'the detail' you keep ignoring in Rev 22 is that it claims this is a future change.

Clearly all would admit that a future event where the lost no longer accept the Gospel and become saved "is a change".

I think that is impossible to miss.

So also the fact that this Rev 22 text claims this as a future event.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Many thanks to Steaver for pointing this out to me. I thought it was simply an affirming post - and missed the question.

Well Romans 2:7-16 give us a pretty good idea of just how the saved saint perseveres.

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Romans 2

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
10 …glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts
16 on the day when, according to my GOSPEL, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

Remember(11 For there is no partiality with God. )

26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.


The same future Gospel Judgment and Perseverance topic is provided in Rev 14

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;
7 and he said with a loud voice, "" Fear God, and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come; worship Him who made the heaven and the earth and sea and springs of waters.'

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


==========================

And of course there is always Romans 8:5-16.

in Christ,

Bob

 

So then for your purposes it really only needed to say "to the lost be aware that there is a time coming soon when the filthy will remain filthy still and the unrighteous will remain righteous still" .

There was no real purpose in your view to say to the saved "there is a time coming in the future when the holy will remain holy still and the righteous will remain righteous still".

Yet the text presents both - as the change that is coming in the future.

Bible details matter even in this case. That is why we make such a fuss about "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine.

If just "ignoring details when they don't fit a certain tradition" were the acceptable form of "sola scriptura testing" there could never have been a Protestant Reformation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

You have conflated two texts. In the case of James 2 - he is condemning anyone that chooses not to keep the Law of God.

James 2
7 Do they not blaspheme the fair name by which you have been called?
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

James is NOT arguing the case "be sure not to keep the Law of God because if you do keep it you will be held to a strict standard --- so beware of Keeping the Law of God". As you read the details in the text of James 2 -- no such "beware of obeying God's Word" or "obeying God's Law" or "Obeying God's commandments" is in the text at all.

Recall that Paul said "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

And John said that it is the "Saints that KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12.

And John also makes the case that not keeping the Commandments of God breaks everything in the Gospel regarding loving one another in 1John 5:2-4.

[FONT=&quot] 1Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. [/FONT]
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world--our faith.

In Mark 7:6-14 Jesus condemns those who try to insert man-made tradition in the place of the commandments of God - Jesus claims they are making void "the Word of God" when they do that.


The saints persevere in obedience and as you saw in 1John 3:4-5 they go pretty far down that road and it includes accepting rather than rejecting the law of God.
1 John 3
3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.
4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is transgression of the law.(KJV)
5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

in Christ,

Bob