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"the time is short"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Gerad, Aug 16, 2005.

  1. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    You mean like establishing His kingdom? See Daniel 2 and Mark 1:15.

    I was always taught Jesus came to establish His Kingdom but was unable to because of Jewish rejection. Thomas Ice and other dispies still say this.
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the New Testament was written so that true believers would have an air of expectancy regarding the return of Jesus Christ:

    Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
    Matthew 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
    Revelation 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.


    It should be remembered that Bible closes as follows:

    Revelation 22:20, 21
    20. He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
    21. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
     
  3. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother OldRegular - Preach it! [​IMG]
     
  4. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Psa 90:4 (KJV1611 Edition):
    For a thousand yeeres in thy sight are but
    as yesterday when it is past: and as a watch
    in the night.


    Jesus left two watches in the night ago
    and will come back soon to get me.

    Gerad: "We have no right to determine what
    a verse means to us until we first determine
    what it meant to the original audience."

    That statement seems familiar. Oh yes,
    so called 'liberal theology', the search
    for 'the historic Jesus', etc.

    Sorry, your initial assumption is wrong
    so your conclusion is wrong.

    When I was saved in 1952 i considered that
    someday God was going to step up and destroy
    the evil doers. By 1964 the world had
    the capability to OUTDO the BIBLICAL
    doom -- indeed to eradicate all life on
    the face of the earth. Now I see that God
    intends to intervene in the affairs of
    mankind lest mankind destroy themselves.

    Even so Lord Jesus, come quickly!

    We have the DUTY to find from the Holy Spirit
    the message for us that Jesus gave
    to people that didn't understand it at all
    some 2,000 years ago.
     
  5. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    You mean like establishing His kingdom? See Daniel 2 and Mark 1:15.

    I was always taught Jesus came to establish His Kingdom but was unable to because of Jewish rejection. Thomas Ice and other dispies still say this.
    </font>[/QUOTE]Amen, Brother Grasshopper -- Preaach it! [​IMG]
     
  6. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It all depends on whether or not you believe Scripture.

    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

    Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    John 14:1-3
    1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
    2. In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
    3. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.


    Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

    1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Revelation Chapters 19- 22 unless you want to allegorize everything written there.

    If Jesus Christ appeared literally in 70AD why is there no historical record? The destruction of Jerusalem may be considered a fulfillment of prophecy but to state that this is the Second Coming is the ultimate allegorizing of Scripture and denies all the Scripture presented above which prophecy a visible return and the restoration of the heavens and earth to the prefall state [Revelation 21, 22]

    Interesting that you should speak of face-value interpretation since that is what Futurists of the dispensational type claim they do. However, a greater degree of allegorizing of Scripture is required to state that the destruction of Jerusalem represented the Second Coming of Jesus Christ than that done by the Futurists.

    There may be some merit in Partial Preterism but Full Preterism simply denies Scripture and must be considered error or worse.

    So that you will understand my viewpoint i am amillennial, not dispensational.
     
  7. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother Bluefalcon -- preach it!
     
  8. Michael Hobbs

    Michael Hobbs New Member

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    Wouldn't the phrase, "the time is short" be referring the time of man's life, seeing how Paul is writing about those that are married and those that aren't?

    Doesn't the Bible tell us that man's life is like a vapor?

    How does the phrase in 1 Cor. 7:29 = "Christ's return is imminent"?

    By the way, I do believe Christ's return is immiment, i.e. any day now.
     
  9. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Many of the same people who believe the NT writers taught imminence are the same ones who tell us Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 was a necessary fulfillment before Christ's return.

    They defeat their own argument.
     
  10. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    You err in your undersanding of what
    dispies believe. Your conclusins is also incorrect.

    whomever: "The time is short, meaning that
    Christ's return is imminent, meaning that nothing
    else has to be done before Christ returns.:

    Grasshopper: "This flies in the face of the dispie view
    which says modern Israel was a fulfillment of
    prophecy and had to occur BEFORE Jesus returns."

    I know of no dispy who says "had to occur BEFORE
    Jesus returned." It is a far cry from that to say:
    "shows the time is nearer than before".
    Actually the main force that makes the time more imminent
    now than before is the relentless marching on of TIME.

    Grasshopper: "Therefore 'the time is short' is not
    indicating imminence."

    Your first premesis about 'had to occur' is false
    and so is your conclusion.

    The comilng of the Lord is as imminent now as it was
    in 96AD when Revelation was written. BTW, if Jesus
    had come back in 70AD, wouldn't John's Revelation
    be a lie?
     
  11. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Ed, I don’t think you have a clue as to what the average dispie teaches.

    Ed, if the bible teaches that certain events are to happen before Christ returns then they MUST occur before He returns.

    Lets actually see what modern dispies say:

    Thomas Ice

    Here is his definition of imminence:

    DEFINITION OF IMMINENCY
    What is the biblical definition of imminency? Dr. Renald Showers defines and describes imminence as follows:

    1) An imminent event is one which is always "hanging overhead, is constantly ready to befall or overtake one; close at hand in its incidence." ("imminent," The Oxford English Dictionary, 1901, V, 66.)
    Thus, imminence carries the sense that it could happen at any moment . Other things may happen before the imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens . If something else must take place before an event can happen, then that event is not imminent. In other words, the necessity of something else taking place first destroys the concept of imminency.
    http://www.according2prophecy.org/perhaps.html


    As we near the year 2000, many contemporary events are pointing to our Lord's return. The fact that Israel has been back in her land for 50 years constitutes " God's super-sign for the end times." In our lifetime, the stage is being set for the end-time drama that has been laid out for us in the Bible.


    Except for Luke 21:20 - 24, which clearly speaks of the A.D. 70 judgment upon Jerusalem, the rest of the passages picture Israel in a position from which God will deliver them from their enemies through His second coming. Even their allegorical approach to the biblical text cannot hide the clear fact that tribulation passages describe our Lord's salvation of Israel, not His judgment upon them. (From: the Pocket Prophecy Series, The Truth About The Tribulation; published by Harvest House)

    How does the current return of Jews to Israel and Jerusalem relate to the dispensational view of distinction between Israel and the church? I think that we have to say that Israel's presence in the land and continuing return from the Diaspora is the beginning of fulfillment of passages like Ezekiel 37. Ezekiel 37 clearly indicates that Israel will return to the land in unbelief and in stages, which fits the contemporary experience. The stage is set for their mass conversion during the tribulation.

    This means the Bible teaches that God will return the Jews to their land before the tribulation begins (Isa. 11:11-12:6; Ezek. 20:33-44; 22:17-22; Zeph. 2:1-3). This has been accomplished and the stage is set as a result of the current existence of the modern state of Israel.

    Hal Lindsey

    (Dispensationalist Dementia;Matthew 24:34)
    "What generation? Obviously, in context, the generation that would see the signs -- chief among them the rebirth of Israel. A generation in the Bible is something like forty years. If this is a correct deduction, then within forty years or so of 1948, all these things could take place. Many scholars who have studied Bible prophecy all their lives believe that this is so." (The Late Great Planet Earth, p. 54)
    "Jesus said "this generation shall not pass, till all these things come to pass ." What generation ? The generation that would see all these signs. We are that generation! I believe you cannot miss it. We're that generation , and I believe we're rapidly moving toward the coming of Christ." (Apocalypse Planet Earth videotape, 1990, HLM)

    John Walvoord

    (On Matthew 24:15)
    " Such a temple will be rebuilt and these prophecies literally fulfilled . If upon this revival of their sacrificial system such a future temple is suddenly desecrated, it would constitute a sign to the nation of Israel of the coming time of great trouble just preceding the second coming."

    If this prediction means what it says, it is referring to a specific time of great trouble which immediately precedes the second coming of Christ. As such, the prediction of the great tribulation is 'the sign' of the second coming , and those who see the sign will be living in the generation which will see the second coming itself.

    David Hocking

    CONCLUSION: It is clear from the Biblical evidence that the modern State of Israel is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy . The Bible makes it clear that God will NEVER cast away or forsake His people - the nation and its land will exist forever!

    http://www.pre-trib.org/article-view.php?id=212

    For these prophecies to be fulfilled, it appears that sacrifices will be reinstituted in some form. Daniel 12:9-13 describes the abomination of desolation as occurring at "the time of the end" in conjunction with the cutting off of sacrifices. Apparently the Jews will again initiate sacrifices at or near Jerusalem; armies again will surround Jerusalem, and the sacrifices will be halted.
    Israel needs a third Jewish temple or some designated "holy place" for this to happen. Before its establishment as a state in 1948, this seemed impossible. Many observers have noted the overwhelming odds against Israeli statehood. Yet it happened!

    http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn54/israel.htm

    8. The Jews would return to their ancient homeland
    Examples: Amos 9:14-15, Deuteronomy 4:25-30, Deuteronomy 30:3-5, Ezekiel 20:34, Ezekiel 34:13, Ezekiel 36:24, Genesis 28:10-15, Isaiah 27:12-13, Isaiah 43:5-6, Jeremiah 23:3-6, Jeremiah 32:36-37, Jeremiah 32:37-41, Zechariah 8:7-8.

    During the late 1800s, after about 17 centuries of exile, the Jews began to return to their ancient homeland, which at that time was called Palestine and was ruled over by the Ottoman Empire. A few million more returned shortly before and after the World War II Holocaust, in which the Nazis sought to destroy all Jews as part of their so-called "Final Solution." When the Jews reclaimed sovereignty for Israel in 1948, it was the first time in about 2000 years that the Jews had sovereignty over any part of their homeland. It was also the first time in about 2900 years that Israel was both a united and sovereign country. Has any other country endured such lengthy intervals of independence? Has any other country endured such intervals with the additional challenge of having its residents exiled and scattered throughout the world?

    http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/accuracy.htm


    If dispies believe these thing happen BEFORE the Second Coming then they "had to occur BEFORE Jesus returned."

    Simple logic Ed.

    Now if you believe His Second Coming is imminent, then you believe all these have been fulfilled:

    Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
    Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
    Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
    Mat 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
    Mat 24:7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
    Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
    Mat 24:10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
    Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
    Mat 24:12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
    Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
    Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
    Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
    Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
    Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
    Mat 24:19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
    Mat 24:20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
    Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
    Mat 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
    Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
    Mat 24:25 Behold, I have told you before.
    Mat 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
    Mat 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
    Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    No it isn’t. The bible says certain things happen before He returns. What do you think the signs were for anyway?

    No, because Revelation was written before AD70. Do some research. Scofields notes don’t count as research. If Revelation was written in AD95, then you are correct saying Revelation is a lie, because it says the events were shortly to happen and near.
     
  12. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    One thing is certain the return of the Jews to Palestine is not in accord with Scripture. We read in Deuteronomy 30:1-3

    1. And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2. And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3. That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

    Please note that God will only bring the Israelites back to the land if they return unto the LORD thy God and that can only be done through Jesus Christ.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ed, I don’t think you have a clue as to what the average dispie teaches.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And your DDiv is a major in what?

    Besides which, i really haven't studied
    Dispensations outside the Bible. You ready
    for a study in Bible Dispensations?
     
  14. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Ed, I don’t think you have a clue as to what the average dispie teaches.
    </font>[/QUOTE]And your DDiv is a major in what?

    Besides which, i really haven't studied
    Dispensations outside the Bible. You ready
    for a study in Bible Dispensations?
     
  15. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    So this is relevant? Or is this all you got as far as "imminence" is concerned?

    Then why did you pretend you know what dispies teach?
     
  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    So say you...

    2 Peter 3:8-9
    But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    So He has been gone a couple of days in His reckoning.

    It works for me.

    HankD
     
  17. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother HankD -- Preach it! [​IMG]

    Sorry Brohter Grasshopper. IL don't need
    antoher fistfight, especially one that it
    doesn't really matter who wins. You win.
    I know nothing about people who speak outside
    the Bible about dispensation.

    Grasshopper: "Many of the same people who
    believe the NT writers taught imminence are the
    same ones who tell us Israel becoming a
    nation again in 1948 was a NECESSARY
    fulfillment before Christ's return."

    By constrast, here is a true statement:

    There is a difference between a fulfilled
    sign and a NECESSARY fullfilled sign.

    People who speak publically who don't understand
    this statement need not be believed
    in what they are saying.

    Here is a short list of prophecied events
    none of which HAVE TO HAPPEN before the
    pretribulation rapture. Any of them might happen
    before the pretribulation rapture, in which
    case we will say "This happened showing
    that the coming of Jesus is even nearer
    than it was before".

    1. destruction of Damascus
    2. Ez 38 invasions of Israel by Gog & Magog
    3. the third temple rebuilt

    (BTW, the Ez 39 invasion by God & Magog
    occurs after the physical 1,000 year ruleing
    of Christ on earth.)
     
  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Grasshopper: "Now if you believe His Second Coming is imminent,
    then you believe all these have been fulfilled:"

    Apparently you haven't read my post showing that you don't have to
    believe AS YOU SAY to be pretirb. However, i think it is disprespectful
    to this board to have to store that writing ONCE for each person
    who wants to read it.

    Look for: "In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
    ask three questions:"

    on this page:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3055/5.html

    This totally counters your post listing Matthew 24:4-30.

    Please refrain in the future from telling me what i HAVE TO BELIVE.
    I get what i believe from the Bible, not from you.
     
  19. Grasshopper

    Grasshopper Active Member
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    Yes, I know. But perhaps you should refrain from making assertions like these:

    You err in your undersanding of dispies believe.


    I know of no dispy who says "had to occur BEFORE Jesus returned

    You seem to claim you know what dispies teach, then turn around and say this:

    Besides which, i really haven't studied
    Dispensations outside the Bible.


    So you see how someone can get confused reading your posts?


    You’re now switching topics. We were speaking of the Second Coming not the rapture as you seemed to understand earlier:

    "The time is short, meaning that
    Christ's return is imminent, meaning that nothing
    else has to be done before Christ returns.:"

    You conveniently didn’t address my point about the imminent return Of Christ. If the bible speaks of events that happen before His return and they have not happened, how could His return be imminent?

    That is a list of events that happen before his return. Do you agree?


    Where have I said you must believe a certain way? Is it not you who have posted things preterists “must” believe?
    Why the anger when someone challenges your views?
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Grasshopper: I'm not sure we even speak
    enough language to be communiating.

    I am a pretribulation rapture/resurrection
    believer. I believe that the SECOND COMING
    of JESUS contains these elements (this is
    also called in the Bible THE DAY OF THE
    LORD):

    1. the pretribualtion rapture/resurrrection
    coming of Jesus
    2. the Tribulation period
    3. the coming of Jesus in Power and Glory
    to destroy the Antichrist & his minions
    and to set up a physical millinnial kingdom
    on earth.

    Ed: //Here is a short list of prophecied events
    none of which HAVE TO HAPPEN before the
    pretribulation rapture.

    Grasshopper: //You’re now switching topics.
    We were speaking of the Second Coming not
    the rapture as you seemed to understand earlier://

    Sorry, Brother Grasshopper - the rapture
    is the part of the Second Coming which
    is imminent ('the time is short') which is
    the topic of this Thread. I am talking about
    what i think 'the time is short' means.

    The time until the
    coming of Jesus in Power and Glory
    to destroy the Antichrist & his minions
    and to set up a physical millinnial kingdom
    on earth is 7 years more than 'the time is short'.

    I explain this at lengh in this topic:

    FOLLOWS IS A HOT LINK:
    http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/3055/5.html
    PRECEEDS IS A HOT LINK, click on it an go
    read my post expounding on Matthew 24.
    Use EDIT, FIND and keyword: "Matthew 24:3"
    to find the specific post of which I speak.

    Remember to use your BACK button (on some
    browsers it is a left green arrow) to come back
    to this thread.
     
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