The Total Depravity of Man....

Russell55, It may be fair for you to privately pigeonhole people, but when you broadcast your personal opinion of another person, you are subjecting yourself to libelling that other person whom you do not know in any manner but through the nondiscript internet. Now to the charges!
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• The belief that at any moment we are able to choose between good and evil and perform the good if that's what we choose. Sin consists only of deliberate choices of evil. And how do you deal with "temptations"? Are temptations not opportunities for choice? Do unbelievers not also face temptations? If unbelievers refuse to fall into a sin, have they not resisted temptation? Is that not a good thing? </font>
• The belief that everyone since Adam has been born into the same position Adam was before his fall. Adam's sin affected no one but himself. To believe otherwise is to clearly state that God makes Junk! My God made no Junk! Each of us is made in the image of God! And God ain't junk! Each of us sins our own sins, the only thing we have in common with Adam is that we deliberately choose to disobey God!</font>
• The belief that Adam was created mortal and that he would have died even if the fall had not taken place. God created the earth, set it to spinnning in an orbit around the sun, and gave it a satellite moon to influence the shape of the earth and its self perpetuating seasons, long before he put his final act of creation, man, on its surface. So the natural scheme of things was in motion before Adam was created. God said it was good! Now you expect me to accept your premise that the natural scheme of things did not exist until Adam disobeyed God and ate a piece of forbidden fruit? Yes, I acknowledge what has been written in the scriptures, but I do not accept the literal interpretation of it like you do. </font>
• The belief that we can live free from sin if we wish, Well you have credited me with a statement that I have not made. I do however believe that all things being equal, man will choose of himself that which is good over that which is bad, with this exception, human sexuality. There, I don't believe man has the power to overcome the desire for sex, as it is too great a force within man. Even so, sex for the perpetuation of the species is not a bad thing, all species do it. Sex for the sake of sex is sexual immorality. </font>

Gotta go, busy day!

 

I would only have libeled you if I had not asked the questions I did, and if your answers had not been in agreement with the lable I gave you. But as anyone who reads this can see from the above post of yours, you are in agreement with the main points of Pelagianism. You have proved with your own words that I am not libeling you.

And you still have not answered the question about when it was exactly that God subjected the creation to futility? When did it become in bondage to corruption?

 

Yes, He did. Remember that man was created in the image of God. Is God an eternal being? Yes.

Yes, death was brought about by sin, particularly according to Romans 5:12 the sin of Adam. To say otherwise libels God and makes Him responsible for death, violence, disease, and catastrophe. Such thinking makes God approving of the survival of the fittest.

The word for "spirit" is "pneuma" or breath. What was it that God breathed into man at creation?

Additionally, are you saying man was created sinful? If not, as I suspect you will not, then are you going to argue that our new resurrected bodies will one day be also corruptible? You might want to examine 1Cor 15 in that regard in a bit more detail.

 

Yes, death was brought about by sin, particularly according to Romans 5:12 the sin of Adam. To say otherwise libels God and makes Him responsible for death, violence, disease, and catastrophe. Such thinking makes God approving of the survival of the fittest.</font>[/QUOTE]One need only read the creation order in Genesis to see that the Earth was created and set in is perpetual course long before the first man was made out of the dust of the earth. Man is the LAST of God's creative efforts, everything else was in its place doing its assigned tasks before man was given the breath of life! Now you tell me, just how it is that sin caused the world to be the way it is! Notice I said "the world" not man!

Did man's sin cause the seasons? Did man's sin cause the Grass to grow, to flower, to seed then to die? Did man's sin cause the oceans and the land masses to be formed? Did man's sin cause the mountains to be raised up, the deserts to be made arid? the jungles to be as they are complete with man-eating animals? Consider what you are telling God when you say yes! Oh God you made a mistake! Just look at the horrible deep oceans with their hundred foot high waves and mysterious monsters so fearful to man, those perilously high and rugged mountains, those seemingly un-cross able deserts, and impenetrable jungles, and those natural Refrigerator-Freezer polar regions, that are inhospitable to man. Consider oh God the size of some of the animals you made and the strength that you gave them to rip man apart limb from limb. God you were wrong to do that all just because man sinned a little bit. Why didn't you just do away with Adam and Eve and start over? Oh, you say it's because the potential for sin was already present upon the earth, and that you gave man the ability to choose? ....oh!

Let us also consider the beguiling serpent, the deception that was presented to Eve by that serpent. God it must be supposed, also created the serpent. Also tell us about the fall of Lucifer and his followers from heaven. Where did they go when they were cast out of heaven? What is Satan called? Is he, or to be fair to the feminist, 'she' not called the "prince(ess) of the powers of the air"? Is satan not referred to as "the father of lies, or for the feminist "the mother of all liars"? Did Satan's fall not occur before man was created? Was sin, or the potential for sin not present on the earth before man was made?

Did the seasons on earth not exist before man was made? Then how is it that man's sin has any effect upon that which God designed and made, and set into perpetual motion?

All I'm asking is that you think with your God given power to do so. Realize that it does not matter that Sin was here first, but that it was not until man was created with the ability to choose, that man chose to sin! Man retains that ability to choose, and when shown the better way, man must choose to take that way else he is lost for ever to perish, BY DESIGN from the foundation of the world! That is, before the first man was made!

NO! man was not made to be a physically eternal being any more than the world tha man was made from and lives on was designed to be an eternal place. Perhaps eternal by comparison to man's life span, but a 24 hour day is eternity for some species that live upon the earth, just as 120 earth trips completely around the sun is eternity for someone who lives a mere 72 years (average).

 

Yelsew,

When did God put creation in bondage to corruption? When was it put under the rule of futility (or depravity, or worthlessness)? Before Adam's fall or after it?

 

You assume that God put all of creation into bondage, I don't buy that. Man alone is in bondage to sin and, yes it is man that influences creation as no other of god's created beings can. The rest of creation itself is not in bondage, but is, in fact, in obedience to God the Creator, doing exactly as God established it to do!

By the way, the scriptures declare that God the heavens and the earth, not heaven on earth!

[ November 30, 2003, 08:59 PM: Message edited by: Yelsew ]

 

How can a direct quote from scripture be an assumption?

For the creation was subjected to futility, not of its own will, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.

The perfect creation was at some point put under the rule of depravity/futility/vanity/worthlessness/corruption. When was that?

Its more than just how man influences creation. I live in the wilderness, I see it. Every day wild creatures die deaths of great suffering uninfluenced by the presence of man. When wolves or bears can no longer hunt, they starve to death. Caribou calves are served regularly as lunch for wolf packs and coyote packs. Lightening fires burn thousands and thousands of creatures to death who are unable to outrun a crowning spruce fire.

Yet in the new creation, along with the revealing of the sons of God, there will be the restoration of creation through God's redemption. God reconciles the world, and things are set aright even in the animal kingdom. Peace reigns, and wolves and caribou calves will lie down together.

By using words like redemption, reconciliation, restoration, etc in regards to the creation itself, scripture is telling us that something that was originally there has been lost. Things have not always been as they are now, and someday through God's reworking, rightness will be returned.

Then why does Paul say it is?

Let me clarify that I wouldn't say creation was disobedient. Disobedience is a word than can be used only for men, angels, etc. It is, however, according to Paul, corrupted and futile.

 

Everything God made in the creation, with the exception of human spirit, has a degradation cycle. A cycle of aging and falling apart. Nothing is exempt except the human spirit.

If one calls that corruption then you have what the scriptures describe. Sin did not cause that, God made it that way! The whole universe is forever changing because Eternal God made it that way. Water evaporates, and recondenses in the atmosphere to fall back to the earth again, when it does is breaks little particles of the earth loose and with sufficient rain, those little particles are moved to the streams then to the rivers and to the ocean where it repeats the cycle. Now God gives the rain to the just and the unjust alike.

The description of the New Earth to come is that there is no sea, because the natural and physical of this creation is not necessary in the new earth.

First reason for that is that satan and all the creatures of evil that God cast down out of heaven to be on this present earth are securely engulfed in the Lake of fire along with all unbelievers.

The other reason is that with the very essence of evil gone, the new earth will be an eternal earth with holy God residing in the New Jerusalem among men for the rest of eternity. There will be no mountains, no valleys, no oceans and only the river of life that flows from the throne of God. As for trees and the rest of the picture, the scriptures seem to be silent regarding vegitation on the new earth except for those trees of life planted along the banks of the River of Life.

Did sin corrupt this earth, and did God allow it to happen? If you believe the answer is yes sin corrupted this earth, and no on did God allow it, then how did it happen? Remember the God of the bible is the only Living Sovereign God. That means that if God did not want it to happen, it certainly would not have happened!

 

PappaBear: Yes, death was brought about by sin, particularly according to Romans 5:12 the sin of Adam. To say otherwise libels God and makes Him responsible for death, violence, disease, and catastrophe. Such thinking makes God approving of the survival of the fittest.</font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew: One need only read the creation order in Genesis to see that the Earth was created and set in is perpetual course long before the first man was made out of the dust of the earth. Man is the LAST of God's creative efforts, everything else was in its place doing its assigned tasks before man was given the breath of life! Now you tell me, just how it is that sin caused the world to be the way it is! Notice I said "the world" not man! </font>[/QUOTE]

How do you see that kind of time period from creation's order? You make an assumption from the text that directly contradicts what the text itself says. "The evening and morning were the first day," "...second day," and so on to the sixth day. The Hebrew use of "evening and morning" shows a 24 hour period. Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 says that the earth was created in 6 days and on the seventh God rested. So to read such a time period into creations order is to directly contradict the word of God.

Well, originally I thought you were discussing creation? According to Gen. 2:5,6, there was no rain prior to man's creation. That would mean no spring rainy season, no winter with falling snow, no summer or fall to contrast that with. No, I do not believe that there were weather patterns before the flood like we see today. Even archaeology establishes a tropical atmosphere as described in Gen. 2:5,6. Based upon the principle of first mention, I believe you did not have that kind of dramatic weather patterns until after the flood, because it is not mentioned in scripture until Gen. 8:22 when Noah came off the ark. Since man's sinful nature caused the flood, then yes, the blame for seasonal changes can be laid at his door step.

No. There is vast difference between animal and human "life" and "death" and that of the plant kingdom. But part of the curse because of man's sin was the thorns and briars that this earth now brings forth.

Once again, considering that man's sin is why God brought about the flood, then yes. According to Gen. 1:9,10, the water was gathered together into one place and the land was one unit prior to the flood. Gen. 7:11 says that all the fountains of the great deep (a single ocean) were broken up -- this would have resulted in the break up of the continents and beginning of continental drift. Continental drift can be measured, by the way. If you ever examine the speed and current distance of the continents from each other, then the time factor conclusion is quite amazingly close to Noah's flood.

Yes, considering the flood. Remember, according to Gen. 2:5,6 you have a tropical climate throughout -- no arid jungles until after the flood and the drastic differing climatic patterns. And don't forget the break up of the continents which would have caused tectonic forces and volcanic activity to push up, crinkle, and change many of the geographical landscapes we see today. There were mountains before (Gen. 7:20), but not likely as dramatic as what we see today.

There were no man-eating animals until the Noahic Covenant, and no animal-eating men, either. (Gen. 9:2-5) According to that passage, there was no fear between mankind and beasts until after the flood -- and why should there have been? They didn't eat each other. In fact, both man and beast were created as vegetarians (Gen. 1:29,30).

I am not sure where you are going with this one, but ok. According to Gen. 3:1, God made the serpent as a subtil beast. According to Gen. 3:14 God cursed it so that THEN (after man's sin) it crawled on its belly. Also, interesting that animals such as snakes converse with people at this time, huh? It seems that Noahic Covenant meant a lot of changes due to the depravity of pre-flood mankind.

Well, it seems that Satan presents himself in heaven at a called meeting of angels in the book of Job. In Daniel 8:10 and Rev. 12:7-10 Satan is before the throne of God accusing us until war in heaven has him cast out into the earth during the Great Tribulation. It is then that he will be cast out of heaven and to the earth, having only a little time left.

I can only proffer an opinion about where he went after his removal as the annointed cherub since the Scriptures do not specifically tell us, but I suspect that the time between that and his beguiling of Eve was very little. Some have conjectured that the Ezekiel 28 passage indicates it is at this time that sin is found in Satan. Ezekiel 28:13 speaks of him being in Eden, the Garden of God, and verse 15 says he was perfect until "iniquity was found in thee." Seeing that God particularly cursed the serpent for his part in the temptation of Eve, it makes sense that the discovery of his iniquity was when he did that temptation. But, there are also problems with that view, so I will not argue it strongly.

Yes, Satan is currently the prince of the power of the air -- but he hasn't always been. At some point he was the annointed cherub that covered the throne of God. When did he become this prince? Sometime after he fell. Yes, it only makes sense that his "fall" occured before man's fall, but not before man's creation. Satan is one of God's created beings, and God's summation of all of creation at the end of it, even after creating man, was that it was very good. (Gen. 1:31-2:1) If Satan had fallen at that time, then God could not have said this, or he would have been thereby approving of sin.

Remember that in the Bible in places such as Daniel and Revelation, angels are referred to as "stars". It is significant that the creation of stars are mentioned in a peculiar way on the fourth day (Gen. 1:16). Consider also that angels were created as servants to men (Heb. 1:14), it would not make sense to create them much before creating mankind.

When Satan "fell" it was not to the earth. For since his fall had to have occured after the creation of angels, and after God's declaration of all creation as good and we have no mention of destruction of the earth adversely affecting mankind, and there is no indication of sin in the world. In fact, Romans 5:12 specifically shows that to be the Apostle Paul's belief from his reading of the Genesis record since he said "... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..." We find that Satan is NOT at that the time the prince of the power of the air, but all the earth is subjected to man. Since I suspect that you are going to argue this particular point especially hard, I feel compelled to print out the scriptures rather than merely reference them concerning this.

Man was then the custodial ruler of the earth. He had dominion over everything, including the birds of the air.

Because God said so. In Genesis 3:14, God cursed the serpent for his part in man's fall. I think it best to quote Genesis 3:17-19 for you.

It is significant to notice in this passage that the ground is particularly cursed by God, that prior to man's fall it did not yield thorns and thistles, and that man did not have to work (sweat) to eat of it. (That kind of applies to one of your first questions about grass growing, flowering, and dying).

I disagree, my friend. If you take from man his responsibility in sin, you take away his reason to choose. If you make God responsible for death, disease, and suffering through creation, you profane Him with a worse cruelty than those electionists who believe God ordained certain men to hell. At least in their view, God has reason to do so! In the view you are currently proposing, you have God creating the earth with death and suffering for no reason at all. Man retained almost nothing in the fall because he surrendered his dominion to Satan. Man was once a prince, and the kingdoms of this world were not then Satan's to offer as he did to Christ in the wilderness temptation. But man did sin and surrendered his custodial power over creation to the vile thief and destroyer who is now the "prince of the power over the air."

You did not answer my previous question to you. What did God breathe into man?

I have another item for you to consider. Do you remember after man had sinned and God drove him from the Garden of Eden what God did and why?

You might find it to be an interesting study sometime on the tree of life. It was also in the midst of the Garden along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:9). Revelation 22 describes it as one tree bearing 12 kinds of fruit monthly (not seasonally? Remember, in paradise there were no seasons ) Remember also that Adam and Eve were told that they could eat of every other tree of the Garden, which would include this Tree of Life, except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. (Gen. 2:16). It certainly appears that God intended man to have an eternality about him!

Secondly, consider the rich man in hell in Luke 16. He is dead and his body is buried, but somehow in hell he has the physical capacities of feeling, sight, hearing, speech, physical thirst, and physical entrapment.

Thirdly, consider Job. He said,

Don't allow yourself to be guilty as others and ignore plain Bible statements in favor of your mental powers of thought. Reason from the scriptures, not against them. In those you will find a true view of Christ and life.

[ December 01, 2003, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: PappaBear ]

 

Interestingly, there were rivers perhaps Artesian wells or spring fed, and rivers flow to oceans. I have seen the Euphrates and the Tigris rivers on Television News stories of the Iraqi war, and there is an adequate flow of water. I have also seen satellite pictures of the region and truly those two rivers do flow to the ocean.

One must also consider that in order for the animals that God created to have something to eat, there had to be plant life, green leafy things that produces fruits, vegetables, nuts etc.

God said that it indeed was very good. Seed-bearing fruit, seed-bearing plants, everywhere on the surface of the planet. Now one need not be a farmer to know that seed-bearing plants and trees do not produce all year round, there are dormant times in which even the plants and trees rest as God himself rested. This is not rocket science, but simple biology like you should have received in junior high school or earlier, so stop trying to make God's creation anything more or less than it is. You only confound yourself by so doing. And what did God tell man? "behold I have given you every plant every seed-bearing plant everywhere on the surface of the earth". Past tense statement indicating the plant life existed before man.

Based on the principle of "first mention" is quite clear that since there were seed-bearing plants that were provided for the animals and for man, that there must be the proper climate and that there had to be "some seasonal changes". Even in the tropics things grow according to a season. Consider the lilies of the field, and the corn, and the maize, and the wheat, and the alfalfa, and the beets, and the turnips, and the leeks and the onions and garlic, etc. etc. If you've never planted a garden then perhaps you would not understand.

The settings are completely different my friend. The "this earth" tree of life (Genesis) was in the setting of an earth designed to degrade, which has a pre-planned life cycle. The Revelation setting is on the New Earth where evil cannot exist.

How do you know? Wasn't that an illustration by Jesus that illustrates the principle that if you do not believe the ancestors, how will you believe on returned from the dead? In other words, it was not a statement of true existence, but of hyperbole.

I'm not sure the Job statement applies.

Spirit! "The flesh has nothing to offer, it is the spirit that is the life of the flesh!"

It's what God did that is important, He placed the Cheribim with sword at the entrance of the Garden lest man who "has now become as one of us, having the knowledge of good and evil, should also eat of the tree of life and live forever." Which just affirms my statement that God did not create man to be an eternal being or there would not have been a tree of life from which man could eat and live eternally. Sin did not cause a change from eternal to mere mortal, because man was made a mere mortal with the potential to become eternal by eating of the tree of life. Thanks for the supplemental affirmation!

 

So Yelsew,

Do you disagree with Paul when he says that God subjected creation to futility, that He put it in bondage to corruption? If you don't disagree with those statements by Paul, please explain when you believe that happened.

And it shouldn't take several paragraphs to answer those two questions.

 

How many times do I have to repeat myself?

GOD CREATED THIS "HEAVENS AND EARTH" TO PASS AWAY! THUS HE MADE IT "CORRUPTABLE", SEASONAL, DEGRADEABLE, ERODEABLE, REFRESHABLE, SELF-CLEANSING, ETC. IF YOU CANNOT SEE THE THINGS OF NATURE, HOW WILL YOU BE ABLE TO SEE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT? THAT IS THE QUESTION JESUS ASKED NICODEMUS, THE GREAT TEACHER IN THE LAND, IN JOHN 3.

GOD HAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED A NEW HEAVEN AND NEW EARTH THAT WILL, AT GOD'S APPOINTED TIME, REPLACE THIS CURRENT HEAVENS AND EARTH. THERE ALREADY EXISTS A NEW JERUSALEM, NOT FOR THIS PRESENT WORLD, BUT FOR THE NEXT, IN WHICH ALMIGHTY GOD HIMSELF WILL LIVE AMONG HIS CREATED MAN, THOSE WHO CAME TO HAVE FAITH IN HIM AND WHO SERVE HIM, AND ESPECIALLY THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH IN "HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON".

THIS "HEAVENS AND EARTH" WAS MADE CORRUPTABLE BY GOD WHO CAST SATAN AND HIS DEMONS OUT OF HEAVEN TO THIS EARTH TO HAVE "POWER" AS THE PRINCE OF THE POWERS OF THE AIR, MEANING TO ME THAT THEY ARE SPIRIT! NOT GOOD, BUT EVIL SPIRIT. THOSE EVIL SPIRITS HAVE THE POWER TO ENFLUENCE MAN EVEN TO THE POINT OF BEING ABLE TO TAKE FROM MAN HIS VERY LIFE.

THIS PRESENT EARTH IS THE BATTLEGROUND BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL AND THE SPIRIT OF MAN IS THE SPOILS OF THAT WAR. IF SATAN CAPTURES YOUR SPIRIT, YOU ARE HIS. BUT IF YOU WILLINGLY GIVE YOUR SPIRIT TO JESUS YOU ARE HIS AND THE PROMISE FOR DOING SO IS ETERNAL LIFE WITH HIM. EVERY PERSON IS GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY TO CHOOSE FOR HIMSELF WHOM HE WILL SERVE. JESUS PRESENTS YOU WITH LIFE, SATAN BRINGS TO YOU DEATH...CHOOSE LIFE!

WHEN GOD SAID THAT HIS CREATION IS "INDEED VERY GOOD", THAT IS A RELATIVE TERM. TO FINITE MAN THAT USUALLY MEANS THAT THE CREATION WAS PERFECT. TO GOD THAT PROBABLY MEANT THAT HIS CREATION OF THIS PRESENT "HEAVENS AND EARTH" WAS PERFECT FOR WHAT HE INTENDED IT FOR!

PERSPECTIVE IS VERY IMPORTANT! REMEMBER THAT ALL OF CREATION WAS ESTABLISHED BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH! MEANING THAT GOD HAS NOT DONE ANYTHING IN A HAPHAZZARD FASHION.

YES, GOD CREATED MAN IN A PERFECT, PURE FORM, BUT WITH THE INNATE ABILITY TO CHOOSE, TO REASON, TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE AND TO ACT UPON THAT KNOWLEDGE. MAN DID! MAN SINNED BY BELIEVING THE DECEPTION PRESENTED BY THE BEGUILING SERPENT, THAT IT WAS GOD'S INTENT FOR MAN TO BE GOD'S BY EATING OF THE FRUIT FORBIDDEN TO HIM BY GOD! THUS MAN DISOBEYED GOD!...THE ORIGINAL SIN! AND SIN HAS BEEN WITH MANKIND EVER SINCE. MAN'S SIN DID NOT CAUSE NATURE TO BECOME CORRUPT, GOD ESTABLISHED WHAT WE CALL CORRUPTION! GOD WHO IS ETERNAL ALREADY ESTABLISHED THE REPLACEMENT "HEAVENS AND EARTH" BEFORE CREATING THIS "HEAVENS AND EARTH". IT IS THE NEXT HEAVENS AND EARTH WHERE-IN BELIEVING MAN WILL RESIDE WITH GOD FOR THE REST OF ETERNITY.

THERE WILL BE NO LAKE OF FIRE THERE FOR THERE WILL BE NO DYING THERE. THERE WILL BE NO EVIL THERE BECAUSE EVIL WILL HAVE BEEN DESTROYED FOR ETERNITY BY THE "PASSING AWAY" OF THIS HEAVEN AND THIS EARTH.

SO, AS JESUS ASKED NICODEMUS, IF YOU CANNOT SEE THE THINGS OF NATURE, HOW WILL YOU SEE THE THINGS OF THE SPIRIT?

 

Yes, the Bible says this. And your point? The existence of rivers does not signify the existence of death, but of life.

I would not disagree with this. In fact, I referenced the fact that animals and men were vegetarians prior to the flood.

Thank you. And God could not have said this if there had been the existence of evil in the world at that time.

I agree that creation should not be made more or less than what it is. But the Bible does not confuse you from the facts. The written revelation is much more reliable than what has to be deduced from natural revelation. The Bible describes it as "the world that then was" (2 Peter 3:6). In other words, that was then, but this is now. It was then a place of perfection. Not having lived in that environment, you err by projecting your current surroundings to that time. I do not doubt that there would be periods of rest as even God rested on the seventh day and later established the rest for the land as a law. But there was no death or decay in mere "resting." As for seasonal production, the lengthy growing seasons of the more southerly climates on the planet should indicate to you that in a tropical environment such as that would be in constant cycle, not an extended dormant cycle such as our current experiences of winter. Since the tree of life is said to produce a monthly fruit, there is strong indication that there was year round production from the plants. Remember that the ground was not cursed at this time, and there were no thorns or briars to compete -- everything was created productive.

I am confused how you believe your quote shows plant life existed very far before man? Yes, it was created before men were. Man was created on the sixth evening and morning, and plant life was created on the third evening and morning. That is 3 days before. When God created them, according to Gen. 1:12, they were mature plants. The herbs were already yielding seed (gone to seed), and the trees were yielding fruit. So, when Adam was created 3 evenings and mornings later, He and Eve could begin eating right away.

I plant a garden 6 out of every 7 years! It is one of my favorite things to do. The Bible states that there was no rain. Do you dispute this? Is the Bible in error? That being the case, the climate certainly was very different from what we would undertand today. Since the flood, those seasons have been more dramatic and have included rain, snow, and various manifestations in the sky of dramatic seasonal change. God did not institute this until after the flood, when it first rained on the earth. The environment then was not as it is now, but a mist rose from the ground as the Bible said -- it was a tropical environment, the type of environment that is very, very conducive to plant growth. In fact, lacking the weeds like thorns and briars, it was certainly plentiful and productive. There was no curse on the ground at that time, as there is now since Adam sinned and God cursed the ground.

Like I said, you should study about the tree of life in the Bible. There are a lot of facts given about it. You seem to indicate that this first tree of life was degradable? Then it would make more sense for God to just cut down the tree than to set an angel to protect it. It is an eternal tree, therefore it had to be protected from sinful people who would continue to eat of its fruit and live.

But, don't just listen to me, see what the Bible says about it.

Here, we find it in Genesis in the midst of the garden. Annnnddddd... in Revelation....

Same tree, same midst of the same garden. It is in Revelation 22 we find this tree bears 12 kinds of fruit on a monthly basis.

How do you know? Wasn't that an illustration by Jesus that illustrates the principle that if you do not believe the ancestors, how will you believe on returned from the dead? In other words, it was not a statement of true existence, but of hyperbole. </font>[/QUOTE]

Uhhhhh... no. Hyperbole's or parables do not contain men's names like "Lazarus."

I am certain that it does.

You seem to have missed that they were already partaking of this tree (Gen. 2:16). Further, you seem to have missed that God promised death only if they should eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:17) That would not have been much of a consequence if they were dying and mortal already.

Above, you quoted where God made man in His image. Is God mortal?

 

</font>[/QUOTE]Same Paradise, Same tree of life!

God placed the guard at the entrance to prevent man from re-entering the garden where the tree of life is. Now if the tree of life is eternal, where is it today? Did it survive the flood or was it too killed by the flood? If killed, then it was not eternal. So God must have removed it and the other tree while no one was looking. If it was eternal, it could not have fallen under the influence of the corruption that the rest of the world experienced at the hand of God!

Well, let's see now, what was it you said that I missed? This does not indicate that they had been eating already, for God had not yet made Eve! Furthermore, This is God's initial commandment to man. Get real Pappabear! Take the BEAM out of you eye before you try to take the splinter out of mine!


Why, do you suppose, the rich man is not also named? Could it be that there are many beggars named Lazarus? Or could it be just a story to illustrate the point as verses 1 through 18 are doing?

Since this is the final discussion of the Tree of Life, it seems to me important to focus thereon!

So help me out here Pappabear, Make the connectios for me. The tree of life in the midst of paradise is not the same as the tree of life in the midst of the Garden. The paradise that the thief and Jesus will be together is after the death of the flesh. The tree of life on the banks of the River of life in Rev 22 is in the New Jerusalem which is on the New Earth.

Now let's get back to this earth and its designed condition! God created this earth to Pass away, he Made it to degrade, and all that has life upon it to "decompose" just as human flesh decomposes. It is not the flesh that is important to God, it is the spirit of man that is to be redeemed!

 

Well, perhaps that would be a satisfactory explanation of that verse in Romans 8 if able to be corrupted, seasonal, degradeable, etc were what the word "corruption" in the phrase "slavery to corruption" meant. But it isn't. It means "being in a worse condition, or being spoiled." That statement means that God put creation in slavery to a condition worse than it was in originally. It is not what it once was, and it's stuck in that condition.

Just like being futile doesn't mean corrupted, seasonal, degradeable, etc, either. It means "useless, not working as it is supposed to, not getting the intended results." So Paul also says that God put creation under the rule of it's own uselessness. It's not working as it is supposed to, not doing what God created it for, and its stuck in that condition.

Both words are words that carry the idea of something being lost--that the condition of creation is not what it once was. You can only get around that by stripping the words of their meaning.

In addition Acts 3 says that all things will be restored. How will all things be "restored", if all things have not lost something of their original state? It is impossible to be returned to an original state if that original state has not been lost.

Your view is unsupportable by scripture, and is, in fact, in direct contradiction to scripture.

 

Really? Then why does Paul tell us in good old Romans 8 that the same body that is now dead because of sin will eventually be given life when that same body is redeemed--when we are adopted as sons?

And if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. (verse 10)

Right now, because of Christ's indwelling, we are experiencing the new life of our spirits.

But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. (verse 11)

We can look forward to these same now-dead-because-of-sin bodies also experiencing new life through the Spirit.

This happens when? When we are finally and fully adopted as sons and daughter--when our bodies are redeemed:

And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. (verse 23)

The work of the indwelling Spirit that we experience now as He revives our spirit is only the first fruits--the first product of our redemption by God that is the promise of more work to come. This further redemptive work will include buying back our bodies from under the dominion of mortality, when our adoption as sons will finally be completed.

 

The spirit is the life of the flesh, the flesh has nothing to contribute. So the flesh is subject to the condition of the spirit. If the spirit is dead in sin, then it follows that the flesh is dead. If the spirit is made alive through faith, then the flesh that houses that spirit also comes alive as a result of the change in the spirit. Keep in mind that ALL of ROMANS 8 is talking to the spiritual life of the Christian!

 

Yelsew said,

Russell55 said,

Russel55 continued with

Yelsew replied, I'm convinced you haven't read what I posted. You seem to think that God is going to redeem this present heaven and earth, and scriptures reveal just the opposite. This heaven and earth shall pass away to be replaced by a New Heaven and Earth with it's New Jerusalem.

Russell55 then said,

Yelsew replied, Let's see, you are concerned with Romans 8:21, but failed to read Romans 8:20. Posting the following

Please look at the whole context, especially verse 20..."but for the purposes of him who imposed it- with the intention that the whole creation itself might be freed...." God imposed corruption upon this "heaven and earth"...like I said! You see Russell55, I do have scriptural support right where you say that I don't. Please understand that All of Romans 8 deals with the Christian's Spiritual Life. Now lets look at Acts 3:

Please note that Peter is preaching AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven and AFTER the Holy Spirit descended at Pentecost. So Jesus is in Heaven but will be sent once again to the Jews, those whom Peter is addressing, after God subdues the Enemies of Jesus (the great restoration). This has nothing to do with changing the creation, but merely with putting Satan away for 1000 years. The earth will continue in its normal God assigned orbit around the sun, the seasons will continue, the grass will grow, flower, seed and die, right on que during the millennial reign of Jesus on this earth.

 

Yelsew,

You missed my point and thus failed to deal with the fact that all the terms used in that passage (and the one in Acts) have to do with something not being in the state it was ORIGINALLY, or not being able to do WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO.

Something that's restored gets something back that was once lost. Something that is corrupt is worse than it once was. Something that is futile (or as your version translated-frustrated) is not able to accomplish what it is supposed to accomplish.

I don't disagree that it is God who has put creation under the rule of corruption, futility and loss of original state for his own good purpose. The subjection part is God's doing--creation is STUCK in a state of loss by His action, but the corruption, the futility, the loss does not originate with God's. God's original creation became worse than it was (corrupt), became unable to accomplish what is did (futile or frustrated), and God made creation a slave to that loss of original state and that inability to perform as it once had because He wanted to REDEEM it. And the word redeem itself suggests getting back something, a RETURN to freedom.

And that's what I meant about your view being unscriptural--it glosses over the meaning of these words: corruption, futility (or frustration), restore, redeem. They don't simply point to death, seasonal changes, temporality, but also to an original condition which has been lost. Your definitions of these words strip them of this important aspect of their meaning.

If creation was created to die, then it would be incorrect to use the word "corruption" to describe that perishability. If creation is right now doing what God what God always intended for it, then it is incorrect to use the word "frustration" or "futility" to describe the results it is getting.

And so on with the other words. It would be incorrect to use them with out a loss of original state.

(Anyway, since I suspect that you are the only person--or perhaps one of a very few--on this forum who believes as you do, and I don't expect to change your mind, I am bowing out of the conversation. It's an exercise in futility or frustration--it's not accomplishing anything.)

 

And you Russell55, continue to fail in realizing that it is spiritual reality that the scriptures are addressing and not physical reality! Truly, the physical reality is performing as intended, but the spiritual reality is not! It is the spiritual reality that God is redeeming. The physical and spiritual in this temporal life are not easily separated, it takes death to separate them, and it is appointed unto man once to die then the judgment. Not one of our ancestors is alive in the flesh but many of their works still stand in the physical as a monument to their having been here. Everyone of our ancestors have departed this physical life and are either in the presence of Jesus or are in the lake of fire or just awaiting judgment then being cast into the lake of fire. The same fate awaits this heaven and earth, for a New Heaven and Earth await God's timing to appear. Only those who have been redeemed because of their faith will live on that New Earth!

Now just how much importance need one put on the meaning of certain words used by certain individuals to convey that message?