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The "trinity"

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by NoShame, Sep 27, 2007.

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  1. NoShame

    NoShame New Member

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    Hi Brother Bob,

    I guess I could ask you a similar question - why is it necessary to include the Holy Ghost as a third person?

    I've no dispute with the workings of God's Holy Spirit. "God is Spirit" (John 4:24) and it's His Spirit we're dealing with... not an active third person. Even if it were necessary, how are you going to prove from Scripture that the "trinity" even exists? At best, it's a man-made, unScriptural hypothesis and most Theologians will agree.

    Nowhere in Scripture is God referred to, or called, a "trinity". Nowhere in Scripture is "three" used when referring to God. Nowhere is it suggested in Scripture that God is referred to as a "person", let alone a person consisting of three.

    We've already discussed 1 John 5:7-8 and how the italicized text (see below) was added:

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water and the blood: and these three agree in one."

    And those three things (spirit, water and blood) do testify to Christ... there was no need to add the other text in order to make that passage understandable.

    We are told what does equal "one" in Scripture:

    "I and the Father, We are ONE." (John 10:30) Why not "I and the Father, and the Holy Ghost, we three are one"? Then trinitarians might have a Scriptural leg to stand on.

    Christ Jesus is the Image of the invisible God ("God is Spirit)...

    "Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" (Col 1:14-17)

    There's only God the Father, and God the Son... not a third:

    "For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a man Christ Jesus..." (1 Tim 2:15)

    I guess that's probably enough to get the discussion started.

    Glen
     
    #1 NoShame, Sep 27, 2007
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  2. soninme

    soninme New Member

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    trinity

    hi no shame , i believe these scriptures prove the trinity .

    The Trinity consists of three Persons: Genesis 1:1; 1:26; 3:22; 11:7; Isaiah 6:8; 48:16; 61:1; Matthew 3:16-17; Matt 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14. In the passages in the Old Testament, a knowledge of Hebrew is helpful. In Genesis 1:1, the plural noun "Elohim" is used. In Genesis 1:26; 3:22; 11:7 and Isaiah 6:8, the plural pronoun for "us" is used. That "Elohim" and "us" refer to more than two is WITHOUT question. In English, you only have two forms, singular and plural. In Hebrew, you have three forms: singular, dual, and plural. Dual is for two ONLY. In Hebrew, the dual form is used for things that come in pairs like eyes, ears, and hands. The word "Elohim" and the pronoun "us" are plural forms - definitely more than two - and must be referring to three or more , (father , son and holy spirit )
    In Isaiah 48:16 and 61:1, the Son is speaking while making reference to the Father and the Holy Spirit. Compare Isaiah 61:1 to Luke 4:14-19 to see that it is the Son speaking. Matthew 3:16-17 describes the event of Jesus' baptism. Seen in this is God the Holy Spirit descending on God the Son while God the Father proclaims His pleasure in the Son. Matthew 28:19 and 2 Corinthians 13:14 are examples of 3 distinct persons in the Trinity.
     
    #2 soninme, Sep 27, 2007
  3. Doubting Thomas

    Doubting Thomas Active Member

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    Well, for one thing, Christ commanded His apostles to baptize, not just in the name of the Father and the Son, but "in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19).

    You also may want to read Christ's discourse in John 14-16 in which He refers to the Comforter/Helper (Holy Spirit) as another as being distinct from both Himself and the Father, and Christ refers to Him as a "He" (not an "it") (see esp John 14:15-18; 15:26; 16:7-15).

    That's enough for starters....
     
    #3 Doubting Thomas, Sep 27, 2007
  4. NoShame

    NoShame New Member

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    Hi soninme,

    As do quite a few other people. I've seen this same argument, or should I say exact same quote, on many websites... like this one for example.

    I would question that. I don't know of a single lexicon that would define Elohim as meaning "more than two".

    The Hebrew noun Elohim is the masculine plural form (meaning God, gods, judges, angels) of Elowahh, (or it's shortened form of El) which answers to "The Deity."

    It's used more than 2,600 in the OT and can even refer to pagan gods such as Dagon in 1 Sam 5:7, or Baal in 1 Kings 18:24. It's also used as "Judges" in Exodus, or angels as gods in the Psalms.

    Yes - Elohim is in the plural form, but I don't know of a single lexicon, out of the many I have, that insist on it carrying a definition of "more than two". If you know of one, please let me know the name of that Lexicon?

    There is still much debate whether there are vestiges of dual verbal forms and pronouns anyway.

    The Greek word generally used in the New Testament for God which answers to the Hebrew word Elohim is Theos which means PLACER (God), literally Disposer or Arbiter.

    Who are the plurality of God? Jesus Christ and His Father. God created all things through His Son Jesus Christ (Col. 1, Heb. 1:2, 2:10, etc.).

    If you'd like, we can go through each of the passages you pasted above and discuss them?

    Glen
     
    #4 NoShame, Sep 27, 2007
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  5. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    NoShame
    What does this verse mean to you personally?

    John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
     
    #5 DHK, Sep 27, 2007
  6. TCGreek

    TCGreek New Member

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    1. I agree that to argue from the plural elohim is somewhat circumstial and can be a simple majestic plural, however, we have the expression of the Trinity in the NT.

    2. Matt. 28:19 to begin with and then we understand the the plural elohim is not just a majestic plural.



     
    #6 TCGreek, Sep 27, 2007
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  7. webdog

    webdog Active Member
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    Why was noshame banned?
     
    #7 webdog, Sep 27, 2007
  8. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    NoShame;
    1. Can you have either one without having all three???

    I didn't know he was banned and don't know the reason.
     
    #8 Brother Bob, Sep 27, 2007
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    I believe it is a policy of the BB not to accept those who deny fundamental doctrines that attack Christ, especially his deity, and the trinity.
     
    #9 DHK, Sep 27, 2007
  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Ok

    I don't think anyone can prove the purposes of each, or all three, are anything but the same. Also, it is impossible, to have one without having all three. Even though they are three, yet they are one.

    Even though I just learned something it in no way changes my mind on the Trinity. It all comes back to not only faith in Christ, but faith in His power of the word.
     
    #10 Brother Bob, Sep 27, 2007
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  11. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    DHK;
    A question that maybe you can help me with. I researched some on the manuscripts and apparently the words "these three are one" were not in the early manuscripts or at least the manuscripts were in such a condition, they couldn't find it. It seems that before the 4th Century they are not sure if the words were taught or not and during the 4th Century it was not and after the 5th Century it was added to the Vulgate.
    Can you shed any light on this or anyone??
    It seems that it is not assured either way.

    BBob,
     
    #11 Brother Bob, Sep 27, 2007
  12. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    The reasoning that the oldest manuscripts are the best manuscripts is not always the best reasoning. Sometimes the oldest manuscripts were those that were set on a shelf for the very reason that there were mistakes in them or that they were not copied properly. When the churches wore out a manuscript it was destroyed. That was the common practice. It is also the reason that most of reliable manuscripts have come down to us in shorter fragments, or in later times. They have also come down to us through the churches who used the most reliable texts. IMO, therefore, I believe that the accuracy of those Bibles based on the textus receptus (Received Text) or Byzantine Text, or Majority Text, as it has been variously called is the most accurate and most complete. There is good evidence for the inclusion of these words, but the best place to look is in the versions forum where that debate has taken place many times.
    BTW, the above is my opinion, and not intended to get into a versions debate here.
     
    #12 DHK, Sep 27, 2007
  13. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    http://www.tyndale.cam.ac.uk/scriptures/www.innvista.com/scriptures/compare/trinity.htm
    This interest me.
     
    #13 Brother Bob, Sep 27, 2007
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