The trouble with this verse

HP: So are you implying that there are true prophets today, but those being addressed are the only ones that can stand before the Lord being deceived as to their standing? Deception is just for prophets? Is that your belief?

 

That is not in the Bible I was using. I see it is in the King James and NKJV. I suggest that it was added later, which is what many believe. The earlier ms do not have it or it would be in the NASB, NIV, and others. But that's another topic.

Well, once again, your KJ Only view keeps us from discussion.

 

I'm saying what the passage states: Jesus is warning against false prophets (yes, there are false teachers today) and they are the ones Jesus describes here.

The passage does not say these are the only ones deceived, but this passage is about false prophets/teachers. Don't add to what it says.

 

HP: No one is adding to what it says except possibly you. You are the one trying to add a restrictive interpretation to the text by suggesting it is limited in scope to to false prophets/teachers. The words 'prophets/teachers is not found in the text period. Why are you adding to the text, and then reproving me when I have done no such thing?

Here is the text Marcia.
Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

I would venture to guess that everyone has prophesied in Christ’s name that has taken the name of Christ simply by confessing Him as Lord of their life, or are you going to try and apply a restrictive interpretation to ‘prophesy’ as well? That goes for deceived professors as well as true believers. The word prophesy has a broad scope of interpretation. It can point to one simply foretelling the future such as Christ’s return. That can be done by anyone and is in no way exclusive of any individual, believer or nonbeliever, again obviously by the text.

Such a restrictive interpretation as you are attempting is no where insinuated by the text. If we applied a similar strategy, as you apply to this passage to all other passages, we might as well go fishing. Any passage mentioned could be limited in one way or another to only those directly addressed according to the limited desire of the reader, or at the whim of the one reading the text deciding what specific group it could only possibly apply to. What folly would ensue.

 

That is just a part of the passage. The whole passage is, as I've posted twice:

15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

I said it was about false prophets and teachers. Prophets are often also teachers. It is someone who is teaching/prophesying falsely.

Please tell me how I was being restrictive.

 

HP: I told you clearly how you were being restrictive. I will try again. What if they were prophesying/speaking/foretelling etc. according to truth but simply not living a life in accordance to the commands of God? Why do you have to add to the Scriptures, ‘prophesying falsely?’

You seem to want to isolate the common professor from this passage, as if they could not be one of those deceived because they were not prophets or teachers. That is what it appears to me that you are trying to do. If not why try draw the distinctions you are drawing without clarification as to what constitutes a teacher or one that prophesies? So I will ask you to tell us Marcia, is there anything in the text whatsoever that would eliminate the common believer, like you or I or any on this list, from being among those that are deceived in this passage? Again, does God ever say anything about them being wrong about what they proclaimed or did, or teaching false doctrine necessarily? Could they have been speaking truth while living a lie? Could have they been engaged in good and wholesome activities on one hand, yet have simply been deceived as to their personal relationship with the Lord? Was their deception founded in their prophetic speech or activities involving healings necessarily, or could their problem been they simply had never been born again as evidenced by a changed life from selfishness to benevolence, or could have they started on the right path and simply got caught up in deception?

The bottom line is that I see the possibility of the verse in the OP as fitting any one of us, and not limited as you seem bound to do, in limiting it to ‘teachers/prophets’ as if only those on some professional level distant from ourselves. It is a warning to me and to you, to make our calling and election certain. Conscience serves a useful purpose in determining our true standing before God according to Scripture, without which deception is more than a possibility. Apart from the testimony of a clear conscience it becomes a probability in spite of any and all promises in Scripture one might be desirous of holding fast to as their hope of eternal life.

 

Here is a verse that might help. Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Notice there is nothing necessarily false about calling the Lord Lord, but their lives simply were not consist with the speech they uttered. What makes one a false prophet may not be due to what one says as much as how one lives. The Holy Spirit, via our conscience, faithfully testifies to that if we will but listen to it carefully. It is when we claim with our lips we love God, yet with our formd intents and subsequent actions deny Him, that deception as spoken of in the passage in question becomes probable.
Everyone of us are susceptible to deception.

 

The deception is in what he says.
Jesus went on to say:
"Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. The leaven refers to the doctrine or the teaching of the Pharisees. When Jesus warned of false teachers he was warning of the doctrine. In Mat.7:20 he said: "You shall know them by their fruit." The fruit is the doctrine which they teach. Know and compare their doctrine with the Bible. It is sola scriptura (Acts 17:11), the principle the Bereans used as they judged the doctrine of Paul when Paul preached to them.

"By thy words thou shalt be justified and by thy words thou shalt be condemned," Jesus said. He was teaching to be aware of their doctrine.

 

HP: Says who? 15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who DOES the will of My Father in heaven.

I believe it is the lives lives to which the ‘fruit’ is speaking of. Certainly doctrine is important but the most important thing about doctrine is the life it genders. Verse 21 speaks directly to the actions of these false prophets not in keeping with the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father? “If ye love me, keep My commandments.” Regardless of what they taught, their lives were not in accordance with obedience to God. They might have taught well but their lives were not lived in accordance to loving God.

Since when does Scripture refer to 'doctrines' when it speaks of 'fruits?' I wonder if there is any evidence from the GK to support such a claim? Is God going to judge us simply according to our doctrines, or the lives and actions we lived?

 

The passage does not say it is about someone who is not living a life in accordance to commands. I am not sure how you've discerned that I was trying to eliminate "the "common professor. " He could be a false teacher if he is teaching false doctrine.

I am not drawing any distinctions. I posted the passage and it's clear what it is addressing. The text is drawing distinctions: false prophets who claim to believe in God and perform miracles and cast out demons but who are not known by God or Jesus. They are cast out. This means they are not true believers.

Yes. I know I will not be cast out because I am saved. I am not believing falsely nor am I a false prophet. Being deceived and being a false prophet/teacher are not always the same thing. All lost people are deceived but they are not all fase prophets or teachers.

A false prophet is not teaching truth; there may be truth mixed in what he or she teaches but it's not truth.

I think the passage is clear and speaks for itself. It depends on what you mean by good and wholesome activities. Outwardly, they were prophesying and casting out demons, so that would probably appear to be a good thing. but I would not call it "wholesome," since they are not true believers. They were false prophets.

Well, I disagree with you. The passags clearly is talking about false prophets/teachers. I am not limiting it; it's what the passage says.

Do you believe a true believer can lose salvation?

 

"Beware of the 'leaven' of the Pharisees." Check the context out. It refers to doctrine, teaching. That is what Christ was speaking of, when he spoke of "fruit." We will be judged by our doctrine, not by the way we live. There are many sincere people in this world, by the way they live, but they are sincerely wrong.

Galatians 1:8-9 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

If you believe any other gospel than the gospel that Paul preached, you are accursed.
Those are strong words; not my words, but Paul's. Christianity is not a religion of living good, of works. It is a faith, a relationship with Jesus Christ based on doctrine. If the doctrine is not right then you have the wrong religion and you will be one of those who will stand before Christ, and Christ will say:

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The works do not matter. It is what you believe. Does one truly believe in Christ as Saviour. If he does, then the fruit of the Spirit will follow automatically.

 

If DHK's post does not wake even the dead on this list, nothing will. What do you think list? Is DHK preaching the truth or is he in grave error?

 

It is from the context that we can see that fruits means teachings. This is discussed at quite a few conferences I have attended.

The Mormons have done a good job using this verse to mean works and then try to say that because they do good works, they are Christians. They ignore the context as well.

 

Heavenly Pilgrim,

And in regard to "doing the will of God" in the context of salvation, that would be to no longer be in rejection of Jesus Christ, but rather embrace Him though faith alone for salvation.

When one does that, they need never again have the slightest doubt regarding their erternal destination, because it can only be life eternal in Heaven. They can forever put aside any chance of "falling away" or "missing out" or losing salvation.

:godisgood:

 

I think that leaven is doctrine and doctrine produces fruit. The two are inseparable. Let me try to briefly explain using Paul's words.

I Cor. 5:"1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. 2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? 7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

Here in Corinth the church was holding to the doctrine that believers can sin away and even glory in it. They were puffed up to the point of thinking they could do whatever they wanted. This was their doctrine and it was was feeding the works of the flesh. This leaven needed to be cast out. Most people think it is the sinner that needed to be cast out, which was dealt with later, but Paul is saying to cast out this doctrine or way of thinking.

In Galations Paul uses similar language:
Gal. 5:7 "Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? 8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you. 9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. 10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be."

Here the leaven is the doctrine of circumcision being preached, that is that we need to follow the law in our Christian walk. Paul makes it clear that this is false.

"For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith." (5:5)

Paul concludes chapter 5 of Galatians contrasting the works of the flesh with the fruit of the Spirit.

The works of the flesh will result when the doctrine of works is preached.

The doctrine of walking in the Spirit will produce the fruit of the Spirit.

 

HP: Fruit….. like lying and sinning everyday if one listens to you long enough to hear your complete story and the reality of what you really believe.

 

Strange response here from this poster, now, to say the least.

I'm pretty sure my mind and memory are not totally failing (as of yet anyway, ), when I believe I recall you as effectively questioning both the salvation and assurance of those of us who do not believe in "repentance" (as you would define it) and the message of those of us who believe and teach "free grace" apart from anything we do.

I believe I recall that you have far distanced yourself from anything that might be characterized by the 'straw man' of "easy believism" in the past.

Or have you now now changed your viewpoint on this, and I merely missed it, which I really do hope is the case?

Ed

 

Now this is something that I do believe is "against the rules" of the BB, at least the 'spirit of the rules' in any case.

(Strange how you claim to know exactly how the verse comes "from the mouth of the Lord" in this case.)

This question, by its very definition, belongs to the "Versions" forum" where a couple of the posting rules are thus:

There is a legitimate question as to how the Greek text reads (and hence, how the English text should be rendered) in Rom. 8:1.

I submit that each of the English versions I cited are faithful renderings of the text on which they are based, as well as the NKJV and ESV being comparable to the KJV and RV versions based on these much earlier editions of the two most significant textual differences.

One may prefer one version or another, but none are "false translations" by any stretch. The issue of which of the readings is the correct one is an entirely different question from this. Multiple individuals, who are just as conservative and orthodox as either you or I, believe that the last phrase of Rom. 8:1, as it appears in the MT, was transposed in copying, from Rom. 8:4. I tend to definitely be of the MT persuasion, but would admit that here is one case where I am not completely sure, in my own mind, even though I have a tendency to lean toward the longest reading.

I would wonder if you actually really do use the KJV-1611 or a later (perhaps even a 'counterfeit' Americanized) edition of the KJV, however? Personally, I normally use, as a primary source, a 'genuine' (It's an Oxford English edition) 1967 KJV or an NKJV, myself.

Ed

 

HP: Ed, how was it a strange post? DHK has called all men, saved and sinner alike, liars. He has repeatedly made comments to the effect that no man can live above sin, and I believe it in keeping with all honesty, even for a day. If not, all DHK has to do is to is to restate his beliefs. If what I stated is not in reality the facts I will apologize both to him as well as this list. It is double speak to speak of the fruits of the Spirit being automatic in the life of the believer and then to claim we are still sinners and liars subsequent to salvation. The righteous are not unrighteous or they are not righteous. They are either slaves to sin or obedient unto righteousness. They cannot be both at the same time.

HP: Scripture warns one and all that none will enter into heaven unless we repent. Repentance is a turning away from sin, not merely admitting to it. Free grace and repentance are not at antipodes. It is by grace and not repentance that we are saved, but neither will any man be saved apart from repentance. Repentance is a condition of salvation, NOT the grounds of it.

HP: Absolutely I do not believe in ‘easy-believism” neither does Scripture. “Unless ye repent ye shall ALL likewise perish.” Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Ro 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

 

I'm fairly sure DHK has his share of errors, just as the rest of us, but not on part of this one.

The 'automatically' bit I believe to be in error, however.

Ed