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The Ultimate Con

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by poncho, Jul 21, 2007.

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  1. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    They don't seem to be too interested in "facts". I had tried to read the first document in the interests of giving it a fair shake and the first 10 pages of it, Mr. Roberts seemed less concerned with facts then he does with ad hominem and hyperbole. Here's some of the highlights...
    Talk about the kettle and the black thing...

    Perhaps, somewhere down the line he gets to business but to me, the first 10 pages was but a poorly written emotional rant, intended to assassinate character and do everything but focus on facts.
     
  2. Hopeful

    Hopeful New Member

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    Poncho, you may have missed this post, so I thought I'd try again. If you have time to answer, I would greatly appreciate it. I am wanting to examine this issue from all angles. Thanks!
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I am not ready to buy into the idea that our federal government was involved in a conspiracy(I think it was more a matter of incompetence) but there are a lot of unanswered questions and people should be able to ask questions on this board composed of fellow Christian posters without being put down.
     
  4. Hopeful

    Hopeful New Member

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    KenH, I sincerely hope I have not offended by asking the questions I have. Since you posted directly after my post, I wanted to make sure. I really AM asking questions of "both sides", so that I can learn about this from all viewpoints. There is so much I've missed in the way of news over these many months.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    No, Hopeful, my comments were not directed at you at all. I think you and I can both be classified as people who have questions about what happened on 9/11/2001 and want answers. :)
     
  6. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    Sorry. had a busy day yesterday.

    Where would you get the idea that no planes were used or that no arabs were involved? Angles, myths? I don't know about these kinds of things. There are others on the board that seem more qualified to comment on such things than I. I'd rather just deal in what can be documented.

    I've never said there were no planes used or there were no arabs involved. People who say that kind of thing are the same ones who try to debunk all the facts that they don't want to face by calling myself and others who question the "official conspiracy theory" nutcases and wackos or they are deliberately "throwing garbage in the groceries" in order to spoil them all.

    In other words they'll try and tie way-out wacky stuff like little green men and black helicopters filled with beings from a time warp and whatnot with real evidence in an attempt to discredit any and all evidence they're afraid others may look at seriously. It's an old warn out ploy, to borrow a phrase from one of my good friends here on BB "thinking people' can see right through it.

    Tim2 has given us some good links to look at that claim to debunk everything the "truthers", "wackos", "creeps", "braying jackasses", "conspiracy theorists", etc., etc. have claimed. I suggest you have a close look at them. Then pick up a copy of David Ray Griffin's "Debunking 9/11 Debunking" and read it. Then you decide who has their facts straight and who doesn't. (while you're waiting for DRG's book to arrive read the book reviews at Amazon) :smilewinkgrin:

    Ken, if the federal government can be accused of being involved in 9/11 at all it would be because of it's attempts at covering up and dodging a real investigation into what actually happened and who was responsible. I'd call that complicity but, I don't believe the federal government was "behind it all" as some would have you believe I believe. ;) I don't buy into the ineptitude excuse either...governments always say "Oops, we're so dumb shame on us" but we can fix it, all we need is more money, more power, and more control, over and over and over. It's like listening to a skipping CD. And they always get more money more power and more control. If being inept paid ordinary citizens as well as it's paid our government then I'd suggest we all run down and sign up for ineptitude classes right away so we can all start profiting from being incompetent too.
     
    #66 poncho, Jul 26, 2007
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2007
  7. Hopeful

    Hopeful New Member

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    You asked where I came up with the question I asked you--it is a result of your post I've quoted above--The way you phrased this, it sounded to me like you were saying that what I would call the generally-accepted account of 9/11 (that the WTC towers and the Pentagon were attacked with planes hijacked by arabs) IS the conspiracy that you are referring to. And what I see in the OP video, this is apparently the opinion held by the makers of the video. Since I did not know anyone questioned this account of the events of that day--indeed, I thought that Osama Bin Ladin and company had proudly claimed responsibility-- this OP video is "news" to me, and I'm genuinely researching this to understand it from all sides.

    It appears that others on the BB are of the opinion that the actual "conspiracy theory" is that held by the proponents of the OP video. I am merely trying to understand the debate. I hope I did not misrepresent what you were saying.

    Thank you for the book reference. It looks as if I have my homework cut out for me!
     
  8. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    That's the "official" conspiracy theory. Or the government theory that "19 arabs 15 of them Saudis" conspired together to attack the United States. This is the conspiracy theory that those who say they don't believe in conspiracy theories believe in. It's kind of confusing to me too. Sorry.

    .

    Well, someone who looked a bit like Bin Laden claimed responsibility. The fat right handed Bin Laden. The real Bin Laden was skinny, tall, sickly and left handed. And I myself believe he died a while ago and so stopped making videos all together. But he still manages to show up every time the government's poll numbers drop, support for the wars takes a dive or the media is trying to scare us into being submissive and in compliance with the governments "new rules". Video and audio can be easily morphed these days, think Forrest Gump. Or click here... When Seeing and Hearing Isn't Believing. The FBI has admitted it has [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]"No hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11"[/FONT]It's only assumed that Bin Laden was connected to 9/11. Look at all that's happened since, we've invaded two countries, the government has doubled in size and grabbed powers it once only dared dreamed of, repealed habeas corpus and due process now "serves at the pleasure of the president" to mention just a few things and all based on an assumption.

    That's true enough. Most of the folks that get called conspiracy theorists have more questions than theory. Yet, people still love to demand that I or anyone who has questions about the official theory prove "my" wordlwide conspiracy theory in one post or less here. They know I can't do that and I know I can't do it...anymore than they can prove that "19 arabs 15 of them Saudis" attacked the United States on 9/11/01 if they had all ten pages of a thread all to themselves.

    The "debate" seems to be more about who's a nutcase and who ain't than facts and evidence. Usually it breaks down into some form of name calling. That's what "thinking people" do I guess.



    No problem. :)
     
    #68 poncho, Jul 26, 2007
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  9. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    But it was. It had to be.

    Don't you realize Bush and Cheney planned the whole thing?

    They had explosives planted in both towers and building 7, hired suicide pilots, and had a missile fired at the Pentagon.

    All of this just so they could start a phony war, the first step to taking over the world.
     
  10. Rufus_1611

    Rufus_1611 New Member

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    hmmm...Some of what you said here is a bit outlandish but you've given me food for thought. You may be on to something here.
     
  11. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member
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    Just trying to get into the spirit of the game. :thumbs:

    :)
     
  12. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    C'mon now Rufus you know the federal government would never even think of doing anything so horrible to it's own people. Only a real nutcase would suggest such a thing. Shame on you Carpro, you need to talk to someone about these strange thoughts you're having!
     
    #72 poncho, Jul 27, 2007
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  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    That source says:
    It is the duty of the Military to give possible options to the
    Defense secretary. It is the duty of the civilian leadership
    to do the right thing (i.e. give eithical options)
     
  14. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    If that's the case then I'd say we're in big trouble Ed. The civilian leadership of late doesn't seem to be guided all that much by ethical considerations. I didn't know it was the duty of the U.S. military to plan on killing some citizens in order to influence others. That's a new one to me. But you may be right.

    No comment about the possible similarities of Operation Northwoods and 9/11?
     
    #74 poncho, Jul 28, 2007
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  15. Hopeful

    Hopeful New Member

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    I realize that post was not directed at me, but I wanted to comment. I had never heard of "Operation Northwoods" til the links you provided. I've spent an hour or so, so far, just researching THAT. From what I've seen so far, this is undisputed fact. The article I read with particular interest was dated May of 2001. It is sad, scary, and EERILY like 9/11.

    That said, I'm still reading. I don't WANT to believe that anyone in any position of power in the U.S. could/would do anything remotely like this. However, since the posts on this BB seem sincere (on BOTH sides, BTW) and the "agenda" I'm assuming to be one grounded in God-honoring concern for this lost world, I do not discount anyone's (here on the BB) point of view on this, regardless of what I "want" to believe. But I don't blindly believe talking heads (of any political stripe), and I don't like the vitriole that comes from ALL camps on these issues surrounding 9/11 (I'm not making the comment about vitriole about anyone here--I'm talking about the media-world and political leaders).

    Anyway, like I said, I'm still reading.....with an open mind....and a heart open to a Godly understanding of it all.....
     
  16. poncho

    poncho Well-Known Member

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    I understand, and don't worry about offending me I've had just about everything thrown at me on BB and I'm still here with my quirky sense of humor intact. :smilewinkgrin:

    BTW, you may find this site interesting as there is a wealth of information here, mostly from declassified documents. The Northwoods Document can be found there as well as the 9/11 Source Books. and others...like the CIA's Operation TPAJAX, a flase flag terror campaign designed and carried out to overthrow the Iranian government in 1953 and many other countries since. The government's use of false flag terrorism to influence foreign populations is nothing new. It's almost standard practice..."over there", so why anyone would be unreceptive to or totally reject the idea that factions within our own government may use it on it's own population is beyond my powers of comprehension. Especially since most would probably agree that the government is almost saturated in self serving coruption. Well, there are a few hardcore nationalists and super patriotic flag wavers that cannot bring themselves to admit this and try to blame it on one side or the other...using the false left vs right paradigm.

    And Ed, I always thought it was the duty of the U.S. military to protect and defend the U.S. Constitution from all enemies foreign and domestic, when did it's duty change to planning the killings of some citizens in order to influence others?
     
    #76 poncho, Jul 28, 2007
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  17. DQuixote

    DQuixote New Member

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    More garbage. Poncho, you need to get out more. Darkened rooms with a computer and conspiracy goblins is not healthy. Go sell this prattle in conspiracy chat rooms. God-fearing Christian folk gather here. If posters spent as much time in prayer as they do following your quoted sources, the world would be a better place. Take the next exit out of here.
     
    #77 DQuixote, Jul 28, 2007
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  18. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Poncho:
    Ah :) I see you are maintaining your weight by
    the frequent exercise: Jumping to Conclusions.

    It is the "duty of the U.S. military to protect
    and defend the U.S. Constitution from all enemies
    foreigh and DOMESTIC". It's duty has NOT
    changed. It is the duty of high level Officers
    (those with Stars /and Naval Equivalents/) to
    provide the civilian leadership with summaries
    of capabilities and to get the capabilities that
    the civilian leaders request. The reason that the
    Generals (and Admirals) are to
    provide the civilian leadership with summaries
    of capabilities is so the civilian leadership can decide
    what to do AS IS THEIR DUTY.
    Needless to say, the civilian leadership will
    be judged on how good their duty was done.

    IMHO nobody should ever know the military/intel options of
    capabilities requested by the civilian leadership
    or the ones not selected for implimentation by the
    civilain leadership. It confuses most people who
    can't tell the difference (for example) between plans for making
    concentration camps, if needed, and countries that
    are full of concentration camps. (I remember in thee 1970s when
    there was a popular "USgovur'ment Concentration Camp
    Conspiracy /CCC/": one of the concentration camps was near
    El Reno, west of Oklahoma City. I checked it out.
    It was a field where the federal government makes a few
    bucks by leasing it out for cattle to graze upon.
    There is a BIG difference between US concentrations camps
    with hunderds of cattle grazing and Foreign concentration
    camps where thousands of people are housed & mistreated.
    In the 1970s and early 1980s I was into the Conspiracy theory
    mode, but mistaken notions like this got me out of it.)

    Anyway, I agree: the Al'quadi conspiracy to get the USofA's
    goat is the ultimate con.
     
  19. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Amen, Brother DQuixote -- You are so RIGHT ON :thumbs:
     
  20. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Poncho:
    Ah :) I see you are maintaining your weight by
    the frequent exercise: Jumping to Conclusions.

    It is the "duty of the U.S. military to protect
    and defend the U.S. Constitution from all enemies
    foreigh and DOMESTIC". It's duty has NOT
    changed. It is the duty of high level Officers
    (those with Stars /and Naval Equivalents/) to
    provide the civilian leadership with summaries
    of capabilities and to get the capabilities that
    the civilian leaders request. The reason that the
    Generals (and Admirals) are to
    provide the civilian leadership with summaries
    of capabilities is so the civilian leadership can decide
    what to do AS IS THEIR DUTY.
    Needless to say, the civilian leadership will
    be judged on how good their duty was done.

    IMHO nobody should ever know the military/intel options of
    capabilities requested by the civilian leadership
    or the ones not selected for implimentation by the
    civilain leadership. It confuses most people who
    can't tell the difference (for example)
    between planning a conspiracy and planning a conspiracy
    that one can commit. for example, if I get in a conspiracy
    to nuke Los Vagas - i have no capability of carrying it
    out (PERIOD). I don't even know anybody would
    or could do it -- 'would do' is far different from 'could do'.
    Both elements HAVE to be present for a conspiracy
    to be meaningful. From 1964 to about 1990 the US and
    Soviet Union had the capability of destroying all life
    (some say only life forms higher than insects) on earth.
    But neither one of them had the desire (would) to do so.

    Anyway, I agree: the Al'quadi conspiracy to get the USofA's
    goat is the ultimate con.
     
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