The water and the spirit.John 3:5 What is the water?

Copout!

 

All right you spiritual GIANT! You teach us unspiritual heathen all about the God we've been worshipping for five decades!

 

Yelsew,

Is there any scripture which you can safely say that is figurative in nature?

take for instance in revelations.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.
Rev 16:4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

what was judged Yelsew. the souls that were in the sea?. the rivers and fountains?. the waters?

Is this speaking of literal water, or a representation of a type of "water".

what is judged? the "water" here represents carnal mans wisdom.

spiritual wisdom as carnal man understands Gods wisdom.

it represents what carnal man understands about Gods wisdom. which has become tainted with the addition of mans error and vile imaginations making the truth of God that they originally received into something cursed. the judgement is to uncover and expose its vile stench of death. it is turned into dead blood.
lifeless blood within dead mens souls. what is really occuring?

is it the law of God judging the carnal works of mankind.?

and then theres your favorite verse

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

the false doctrines (sea=water=carnal wisdom) that men held so tightly is seperated in death. by the law killing their carnal works. By the truth of God replacing each and every falsehood held. by covering over every idea of error with truth.

how do men escape the sea where they are held in death. by the power of "the truth". that Our father has given his adopted child a new spirit within them as a free gift and that the new spirit is more powerful than death.
If Jesus has been resurrected from death. then the self-same spirit that Our father has given us also has been resurrected.

Open up your Eyes. You have been resurrected.

If we see thru the eyes of our new faith that comes with the free gift of Gods Sons spirit that is within us.

If we accept this truth That God does have the ability and has given to us a new spirit.

that the water that is necessary to birth you anew does have power to replace falsehoods and cleanse all our unrighteousness.

the water in John 3 is the Living water of God.

the waters in revelations is the dead water of carnal mans doctrines

see all the allegory?. the figurative symbols?

Me2

 

While I agree with your first sentence, I disagree that v.22 begins an entirely new context.

Remember, each of the Gospels were written with a slightly different point of view, and details were included or left out and put in the order we find in the narratives to reflect the purpose of the author under the inspiration of God. That's why the Gospel accounts, particularly John, diverge somewhat from each other, though when taken as a whole present a harmonious picture of Christ.

With this in mind, one can say the entire Gospel provides context for the passage, particulary the verses immediately surrounding it as they are there in that order on purpose. Also John's Gospel was the last one written, and his audience has been steeped in the apostolic teachings regarding water baptism and regeneration. Looking at many of the extrabiblical writings of early Christians (such as Irenaeus and Justin Martyr), these believers took it for granted that water baptism was "the washing of regeneration".

I agree that Christ didn't go around advertising who He was, but people like Nicodemus did seek Him out (John 3:1-2). As you pointed out, there was during that time an expectation for the arrival of Christ, and no doubt Christ's miracles and teachings caused some (Nicodemus perhaps) to wonder if He was the One.

Right, and my point was not that Christ only spoke in parables, but that He did in fact use them frequently. He certainly did proclaim the Truth clearly, but He also uttered hard sayings.

 

John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 17
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Ephesians 5
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word

 

In the opening of Jesus with Nicodemus there is a statement about it being night time when this discourse took place. Verse 22 and on addresses "baptising". Is it characteristic of the first century church to do night time baptisms?
Different scenario!
Different setting!
Different conditions!
Different people!
Different topic!

My statement stands, "verse 22 begins an entirely new context!"

John Chapter 3 is the only place in the whole bible where Nicodemus and Jesus are in coversation!

 

Do you believe that Water baptism has any power at all in regeneration?

Why did they, unless of course they heard it wrong TOO!

 

What do you see that is "hard" in the conversation between the Christ and Nicodemus?

I see nothing to difficult to understand! There is nothing allegorical therein.

 

Well, apparently Nicodemus found the Jesus' statement about being "born again" to be difficult to understand. Check out his responses to Jesus in vs.4 & 9.

 

Yes, Herc, and I seriously doubt your faith TOO!

I have not once seen your personal salvation testimony on the screen of my computer. I have not seen you declare your own personal testimony of who and what Jesus is.

Your "little enuendos" have not gone unnoticed. You are accusing Wesley of having no saving grace! You ignorant pharisee!

 

In the opening of Jesus with Nicodemus there is a statement about it being night time when this discourse took place. Verse 22 and on addresses "baptising". Is it characteristic of the first century church to do night time baptisms?
Different scenario!
Different setting!
Different conditions!
Different people!
Different topic!

My statement stands, "verse 22 begins an entirely new context!"

John Chapter 3 is the only place in the whole bible where Nicodemus and Jesus are in coversation! </font>[/QUOTE]Your statement "stands" because you failed to answer my assertion about the whole book and its purposeful order of events (particularly the events immediately surrounding the passage in question) providing "the context". Again, the Gospel was not written by stringing hodge-podge narratives together in a random fashion, nor was it meant to be an exhaustive account of everything that Jesus ever said or did (John 20:30-31; 21:25). As for your question "Is it characteristic of the first century church to do night time baptisms?", I don't see how that logically has to do with anything. Jesus and Nicodemus were talking (I submit, about baptism) at night; no one in that passage was actually being baptized at night.

Since, it appears that we are talking past each other, I'll take this opportunity to bow out of this thread.

Peace.

 

Im still confused about the possibility of adam and eve being born again.

if Yelsew is correct. If God would have given them a gazillion chances to be born again.

they would never qualify.

because he was made from dirt and she was made from a rib. neither was born through the birth canal. oops I mean...born of water..

Me2

 

Herc,

sometimes we get a glass of water From dad thats a complete mystery to others. theres no need to sympathize or argue with others who cant hear as you express what the flavor of water..sounds, looks, or even tastes like.

this mysterious glass of water is just for you.

although all of our struggles to understand God does have its rewards. yet we occasionally need others who have tasted of the same water to allow ourselves the luxury of not appearing that we are alone to ourselves and that we are on the right paths of accepting truth as it is given to us by God..

wether we stand or fall. we are the lords. and we all experience the same truths and errors eventually.

(wether we're there for a minute or a lifetime.)

Oh you say you want another glass of water...how about something thats of a different flavor

Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

look like the serpent didnt like that ole woman..(the jews who kept the law.) as he began planting all the dillusions and doctrines of men within her laws. or even her child, the remnant, the church as he also planted seed of "doctrines of men" within their teachings also.

yet theres that haunting figurative language again.."water as a flood". now, isnt satan called the imposter, isnt he?. reproducing the works of God. using his interpretations of Gods truth to overflow over the people that God has chosen to be his "called out ones"

question is today:

What kind of water are we drinking?
the real thing, or the substituted version? the living water Jesus is speaking to nicodemus of or the poison of death flowing out of the mouth of satan that will possibly overcome us as a flood.

Luk 6:49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

is this a stream of literal water? or man made doctrines? or even Gods truth? ..mysterious..

Me2

[ February 20, 2004, 01:10 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

If you ever get an opportunity .. read dave matthews song titled.."dont drink the water".


Come out come out
No use in hiding
Come now come now
Can you not see?
There's no place here
What were you expecting
Not room for both
Just room for me
So you will lay your arms down
Yes I will call this home
Away away
You have been banished
Your land is gone
And given me
And here I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
What's this you say
You feel a right to remain
Then stay and I will bury you
What's that you say
Your father's spirit still lives in this place
I will silence you
Here's the hitch
Your horse is leaving
Don't miss your boat
It's leaving now
And as you go I will spread my wings
Yes I will call this home
I have no time to justify to you
Fool you're blind, move aside for me
All I can say to you my new neighbor
Is you must move on or I will bury you
Now as I rest my feet by this fire
Those hands once warmed here
I have retired them
I can breathe my own air
I can sleep more soundly
Upon these poor souls
I'll build heaven and call it home
'Cause you're all dead now
I live with my justice
I live with my greedy need
I live with no mercy
I live with my frenzied feeding
I live with my hatred
I live with my jealousy
I live with the notion
That I don't need anyone but me
Don't drink the water
Don't drink the water
There's blood in the water
Don't drink the water


What kind of water is dave speaking of here ?
certainly not the water Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about...

yet it is the water nicodemus is used to drinking.

Me2

 

Are you saying then that the separate, individual, unique, writings of separate, unique, individuals is one continuous writing? And that they all collaborated in producing the Holy Bible? That's what it sounds like you are saying! As for the Apostolic writings, those men all graduated from the same seminary in the same graduating class, except for Paul, but 'Pauly is special'!

The book of John, and truly the other Gospels as well, appears to be somewhat of a diary recording "snippets" out of the life and ministry of Jesus. They appear to be in some form of Chronological order, but one "snippet" is not necessarily connected to the other "snippets" in intent or meaning. There may have been minutes, hours days, or even weeks separating the various snippets. The ministry of Christ covers a reputed 3 1/2 years. If everything Jesus said or did were written down, you certainly could not carry your bible to church with you on Sunday just so you can put a check in that box of your religious checklist.

The 40 plus authors of the works included under one cover we call the bible, were written over a 1600 year span of time, etc. etc. Even the writings of the new testament covered the span of nearly a century. There is however, one continuous theme throughout the works of the bible and that is GOD's plan of redemption of fallen man.

Even in Paul's writings, his letters were written in different settings, under different conditions, to different peoples, and not one of his letters has the same continuous thought from beginning to end, and Paul seems, in places, to contradict himself. But once you get to know Paul through his writings you can see that he is addressing different people, different cultures, with different set of instructions, all of which are in harmony.

The point is that the bible contains the works that Holy God determined for man to have, that reveal enough of who God is and what his plan is for his created man, so that man would upon hearing the word, come of his own free will seeking after God! I know you calvinists don't agree but that is your problem not mine!

Having read the bible in four different versions from cover to cover, some of them more than twice, which is statistically more than most of you have done even once, I have nothing to be ashamed of in the beliefs that I hold dearly, and your "learned" criticisms are mere water running off a ducks back! No, I do not memorize chapter and verse divisions, I find that a useless exercise, that are not found in other major works. The work of dividing the scriptures by numbers is the work of small minded persons. It leads to the type of arguements that we are having on this BBS.

So whether or not you agree with me is not of any value to me. When you convolute the thoughts contained in scripture, you do so at your own peril.

Sorry to see you bow out!

 

Although, I am bowing out of the debate about what the "water" is in John 3:5, I'll respond to this post, since you spent a lot of time on it.

Nope, I'm saying that the Gospel of John is one continuous writing written by one author. The Bible is obviously a collection of books written by many different authors.

I agree, except that my point was that there was a particular purpose for the "snippets" John included. Because of this purposeful arrangement of material, I think the context may refer to more than just one or two specific paragraphs.

Right, no arguments here.

I agree somewhat. Paul's letters my different from each other, but within a given letter there is definite order and purposeful arrangement of content. Each letter was composed to stand alone for the purpose of being read by its intended audience. Together, however, they were gradually collected into the NT canon.