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Featured The Willingness of Men 2

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by ad finitum, Sep 23, 2021.

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  1. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You keep telling yourself an untruth to avoid God's word. You couldn't even answer my simple question.
     
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  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    The bolded statement tells us all that you have a gospel of works apart from grace.

    Was the jailer not appointed to believe?

    Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
     
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  3. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    The Psalm explains itself, that the phrase "no one understands; no one seeks for God" is being used out of context to claim that nobody of any category of human ever seeks God. The mention of righteous people in the immediate context falsifies that interpretation, proving that those who use it for their own Calvinist purposes are ignoring context and at the same time, destroying the true meaning of the Psalm. That's two evils with one go. These "sons of men", of whom it is said that none are righteous, persecute the people of God who are righteous. If that is the case, then the "no one seeks God" is not talking about the righteous but the category who claim "NO GOD". It is the entirety of that category of whom it is said that none seek God.
     
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  4. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    It's interesting that one would conclude "fatalism" from what I posted. That is usually what is said of Calvinism since God's inscrutable choices regarding the application of His "magic screwdriver" are tantamount to fate.
     
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  5. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    This is an interesting question. One may ask why as statistic about free will isn't arriving at some expected ratio. However, if the will is truly free, then it cannot be predicted by anyone who is not God.

    Just like a lottery that is truly random, there should be no way to predict what the numbers "should" be. There is no such number. It is the same with free will. The heavenly rebels turned out to be about one third. Should the earthly rebels (against Satan's kingdom) amount to the same ratio? Less? More?

    God knows.
     
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  6. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    Perhaps you noticed that Paul qualified his remarks about the ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. It's all who use it to suppress the truth. You claim this says all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men is used to suppress the truth. But the way Paul puts it, It doesn't. Everything else flows from this subset of the ungodly and unrighteous. The grammar doesn't lie.

    Do you know what it means to qualify a remark? It means putting a limit on its scope. But you said the scope has no limit, implying that Paul didn't say what he just said. This is the same error people commit in Psalm 14. They don't think there is a limit on the scope of "all" and "none" or "not one". But verse 1 is the qualification. It's not a throwaway verse. One gets the impression that the only reason a Calvinist reads the Bible is to find weapons to defend his theology.

    What is really going on in the Psalm? What was going on in Israel that motivated the psalmist to write this hymn? Does anyone actually care? Do you get the feeling that a Calvinist really couldn't care less?
     
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  7. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    In the Psalm, there is a juxtaposition between evildoers (none righteous) and the people of God -- the generation of the righteous. God looks at the sons of men and finds what? And what he finds are people who persecute God's people, His children, the children of God, the generation of the righteous. Children of men versus children of God. The Psalmis is contradicting the Calvinist to his face without even trying hard. That's the power of the Word, if people would just let it's words sink down into their ears.
     
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  8. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    We can all see how hard you are working to twist what is written in scripture and interpret it with the twist.

    We know that all who are in the flesh cannot please God. We know they suppress the truth. We know that no one seeks God. Paul, in Romans 1-11 lays out his judicial argument that only the elect receive the promise of being children of God, receiving faith from God which justifies their belief. He continually anticipates arguments to his thesis and brings up the question which he answers through quoting scripture.

    We will not agree. I read Romans and see very clearly that our salvation is 100% of and from God alone. You want to be first and control your salvation. God never teaches what you want. However, I once held free will arguments and God slowly destroyed my arguments through me reading scripture and accepting the Bible over the human teachers who taught free will. There is hope that you will follow that path as God destroys your arguments in scripture.
     
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  9. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    The difference is I know what biblical foreknowledge is .
    God is not a spectator seeing what happens in the future,what will be will be.
    The future is fixed and certain because God is accomplishing His eternal purpose.
     
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  10. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    To speak of the biblical God using a "magic screwdriver"is profane.
    All who come in opposition to the truth resort to.such language as they have no grasp of biblical reality.
     
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  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    This is precisely why I use the word blaspheme. In imagining they are chipping away at a human philosophy, they actually accuse God and call Him a liar. This should put fear in those who make such godless claims.
     
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  12. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
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    Hi Ad Finitum, I liked parts of several of your posts in this thread. Thanks for sharing your insight. Just so I am sure you know where I am coming from, I believe the TULI of the Tulip are false doctrines, not supported anywhere in scripture. However I do believe in "election" God choosing individuals for salvation. But contrary to Calvinism (and Armininism) I believe God makes this individual choice during our lifetime, after we have existed as "not a people" chosen (elected) and after we existed having "not received mercy." (1 Peter 2:9-10) Thus, I believe, the election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate and not individual.

    Here is 1 Peter 1:1-2 (NASB):
    Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.

    So first we see individuals living at the time "are chosen" without any evidence of how long beforehand they were chosen. Thus this verse does not challenge the idea of being chosen during their lifetime.

    How were they chosen? First, according to the foreknowledge of God. When something is done according to foreknowledge, the idea is something is done in the present according to a predetermined plan, formulated in the past. The word does not mean to foresee the future.

    And how did the predetermined plan of redemption say individuals would be chosen? By the sanctifying work of the Spirit which refers to being set apart (baptized spiritually) into Christ.

    And on what basis would God choose those individuals? This verse does not say. However 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says "through or by reason of" faith in the truth.

    What is the meaning of "to obey Jesus Christ?" Once saved we are to be effective ambassadors of Christ with the ministry of reconciliation, begging the lost to be reconciled to God.

    What is the meaning of "be sprinkled with His blood?" This refers to the washing of regeneration, the circumcision of Christ which removes the body of flesh (whatever God held against us) which results in forgiveness and justification and being made righteous.
     
  13. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    Was God a spectator when He foresaw Satan's fall and "what will be will be" or was God active in Satan's decision? You can't have it both ways.
     
  14. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    When do you think that the division of the Bible into verses occurred? Do you really think that Peter wrote his letter in verses?
    Of course the Greek word elektois agrees with parapidemois. That is a given; the -ois gives it away. The people to whom Peter is describing are 'chosen (or 'elect') pilgrims.' Elektos does not mean 'favoured;' that would be kecharitomenos (see Luke 1:28). 'Hand-picked' means pretty much the same as 'chosen,' but there is no verb 'to be' in the text; you have added that to bolster your rather weak case. The reason that most Bible versions have separated 'elect' and 'sojourners' is because the verses would otherwise read clumpily in English.
    1 Peter 1:1-2 does not refute Calvinism; it proves it.
     
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  15. ad finitum

    ad finitum Member

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    Thank you for the very nice reply. I probably failed to be clear about this but the point about 1 Peter 1:1-2 is that "elect" or "chosen", in all Greek texts, it is an adjective describing "sojourners". It's not modifying "salvation" or anything related to it. However, virtually all translators have moved the word from in front of "sojourners" in verse 1 and installed it at the front of verse 2 (or the end of verse 1) so that it modifies a different idea.

    Click this Biblehub link for the detail:
    1 Peter 1:1 Interlinear: Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

    If you follow the gloss in the Biblehub interlinear, the translation should be something like this (the word for "elect" is underlined):

    1. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to select (or favored) sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bythinia,

    2. According to the foreknowledge of God the Father by the sanctification of the Spirit unto the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ, grace to you and peace may be multiplied.

    The English translations are mistranslating from the Greek in order to fabricate a verse that seems to support Calvinist theology, but in fact it is doing no such thing.
     
  16. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    You do not understand biblical foreknowledge. Satan did what he wanted to do in his sin and rebellion.
    God is omniscient so He is never a spectator as you would like to posit, by saying He does not control everything that comes to pass. Satans sin and rebellion did not surprise God. Have you read JOB? How can you even ask if God was a spectator? I think it is because your philosophical musing of necessity describes a fatalistic understanding rather than the biblical worldview of God's eternal purpose which always gets accomplished as he has made it known to the Church.
    Eph3;9-11, Isa 46:9-11
     
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  17. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This; preceptaustin;
    1 Peter 1:2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace & peace be yours in the fullest measure (APO).. (NASB: Lockman)

    Greek: kata prognosin theou patros, en hagiasmo pneumatos, eis hupakoen kai rantismon haimatos Iesou Christou; charis humin kai eirene plehtuntheie. (APO)

    Amplified: Who were chosen and foreknown by God the Father and consecrated (sanctified, made holy) by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ (the Messiah) and to be sprinkled with [His] blood: May grace (spiritual blessing) and peace be given you in increasing abundance [that spiritual peace to be realized in and through Christ, freedom from fears, agitating passions, and moral conflicts]. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

    GWT: God the Father knew you long ago and chose you to live holy lives with the Spirit's help so that you are obedient to Jesus Christ and are sprinkled with his blood. May good will and peace fill your lives!

    NLT: God the Father chose you long ago, and the Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed Jesus Christ and are cleansed by his blood. May you have more and more of God's special favor and wonderful peace. (NLT - Tyndale House)

    Phillips: whom God the Father knew and chose long ago to be made holy by his Spirit, that they might obey Jesus Christ and be cleansed by his blood: may you know more and more of God's grace and peace." (Phillips: Touchstone)

    Wuest: chosen-out ones, this choice having been determined by the foreordination of God the Father, those chosen out to be recipients of the setting-apart work of the Spirit resulting in obedience (of faith) and (thus) in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. Grace (be) to you, and (heart) peace be multiplied. (Eerdmans)

    Young's Literal: according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

    (CHOSEN) ACCORDING TO THE FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD THE FATHER: kata prognosin theou patros:

    Vincent agrees that this section speaks of "The foreknowledge of the Father, the sanctification of the Spirit, the obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ the Son. The Father foreknowing, the Son atoning, the Spirit applying the Son’s work in sanctifying.

    God the Father elects the sinner to salvation (Ep 1:4-note), God the Spirit brings him to the act of faith (2Th 2:13), and God the Son cleanses him from sin (Ro 5:6, 7, 8, 9, 10 - see notes 5:6; 5:7; 5:8; 5:9; 5:10) having given

    Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us out of this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father to Whom be the glory forevermore. Amen. (Gal 1:4, 5)
    C. E. B. Cranfield comments on chosen according to the foreknowledge of God writing that "

    If all our attention is concentrated on the hostility or indifference of the world or the exiguousness (excessive scantiness) of our own progress in the Christian life, we may well be discouraged. At such times we need to be reminded that our election is according to the foreknowledge of God the Father. The Church is not just a human organization—though, of course, it is that. Its origin lies, not in the will of the flesh, in the idealism of men, in human aspirations and plans, but in the eternal purpose of God.

    In this section Peter presents truth to undergird the faith of the "elect sojourners" by emphasizing that the entire Godhead is active in their salvation experience (Click and scroll down to MacArthur's excellent summary of six "Advantages of God's Election"). (See J C Philpot - Meditations on First Peter Chapter One)

    Peter begins by explaining to his readers how they became "the chosen". Remember that the "chosen" are those individuals who have been picked out of all mankind by and for God Himself. God's choosing anyone for salvation is a reflection of His sovereign unmerited favor (grace). Furthermore, God chose us in Christ even before the foundation of the world (Ep 1:4-note). In eternity, before the universe came into existence, God had the elect in His heart for salvation! Believers are not an afterthought, but a forethought of God. Dearly beloved, be greatly encouraged by this incomprehensible, profound truth.

    Next Peter explains that this salvation is according to the Father's foreknowledge. According to is the Greek word katá which means "down" and in the context of this verse conveys the idea of domination. In other words God's choice was "dominated" (or controlled or determined) by the foreknowledge of the Father.

    What does the "foreknowledge of God the Father" imply? Some mistakenly reason that the elect are chosen because God knew beforehand that they would receive Him. The reasoning is that God looked down through the ages and in His omniscience saw what each person would do in regard to His Son, and then He chose or didn't choose individuals based on whether or not they believed. This might sound plausible but it is not how Scripture defines God's election and foreknowledge. So let's do a "simple" (actually somewhat technical) word study of foreknowledge to help understand.
     
  18. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    pt2
    Foreknowledge (4268) (prognosis from verb proginosko from pro = before + ginosko = to know) literally means to know in advance or beforehand. In the classic use foreknowledge (prognosis) simply indicated a previous knowledge of someone or some event, as in Acts 26:5 where Paul says "they have known about me...previously" and in 2Peter 3:1 (note) where Peter reminds the saints that they "know beforehand" that there are those who will distort the Scriptures. As discussed below God's foreknowledge means not only that He knew beforehand but that He also planned beforehand (cf. similar idea in Ex 33:17; Jer 1:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew 7:22; 7:23 [notes]). And thus the simple meaning of prognosis takes on an additional sense when it is applied to God's foreknowledge as discussed in more detail below (see also preceding above).

    John MacArthur comments on foreknowledge as it relates to election noting that

    A common explanation of election is that the elect are chosen because God knew beforehand what they would do. That defines foreknowledge as foresight. I've heard it explained that God looked down through the eons of history, saw by virtue of His omniscience what you and I would do, and then chose or didn't choose us based on whether we did or didn't believe. That at first sounds like a good explanation--but it's not the truth.....

    There are several reasons for wanting to believe that God's foreknowledge means foresight. Our fallen nature desperately want some responsibility for our salvation. Likewise our fallen perspective makes God's sovereign choice appear unfair. But because our minds are polluted by sin, we are in no position to exalt our pride and call ourselves virtuous, or pull down the justice of God and call Him unfair." (Click to read Dr MacArthur's interesting explanation of why many men want to believe that foreknowledge is simply foresight. Note that this quote is from "Chosen by God, Part 2". Scroll down to the section entitled Man's Decline) (Bolding added)

    In other NT uses both prognosis and the verb root proginosko are used in relationship to God and acquire an additional meaning as explained in the next section.

    Theologian Louis Berkhof has this to say about foreknow (proginosko) and foreknowledge (prognosis), noting that in the New Testament these terms

    do not denote simple intellectual foresight or prescience, the mere taking knowledge of something beforehand, but rather a selective knowledge which regards one with favor and makes one an object of love, and thus approaches the idea of foreordination, Acts 2:23 (Comp. 4:28); Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Peter 1:2. These passages simply lose their meaning, if the words be taken in the sense of simply taking knowledge of one in advance, for God foreknows all men in that sense. Even Arminians feel constrained to give the words a more determinative meaning, namely, to foreknow one with absolute assurance in a certain state or condition. This includes the absolute certainty of that future state, and for that very reason comes very close to the idea of predestination. (L. Berkhof, Systematic Theology Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1976, 112)

    Acts 2:23+ is the first occurrence of either prognosis or proginosko related to God and provides a pattern for the meaning of both words in other places in the New Testament. In Acts 2:23+ Peter is preaching to the unsaved Jewish audience and declares

    this Man (Jesus), delivered over (betrayed by Judas, to the power and will of His enemies) by the (definite article "te" in Greek placed before both the following nouns connected by "and" = kai) predetermined plan and (Greek = kai) foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death." (Acts 2:23)

    Comment: The words "the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God" (Acts 2:23+), are a Greek construction governed by the Granville-Sharp rule. This grammatical rule simply states that when two nouns are joined by the word “and” (the Greek kai) and the first noun has the article (article = "the") in front of it and the second does not, both nouns refer to the same thing. In Acts 2:23+, this rule shows that the word foreknowledge refers to the same act as does the phrase predetermined plan and is an additional description. The Greek word “plan” (Greek = boule [word study]), means to have an interchange of opinions, a mutual advising or the exchange of deliberative judgment. Plan refers to the results of a consultation between individuals.

    Predetermined (perfect tense - past completed act with ongoing effect) refers to the past act of putting limits upon something with the present result that some certain thing has been appointed or decreed. It describes this consultation as one that had as its purpose the fixing of limits upon, thus determining the destiny of someone, in this case of the Lord Jesus Christ. In other words, in eternity (2Ti 1:9-note; Re 13:8-note), the Trinity, determined that the Lord Jesus Christ should be given over into the hands of godless men to be crucified. The word foreknowledge (prognosis) refers to the same act, and therefore includes in it the truth indicated by the predetermined plan. Foreknowledge, however, adds the idea of the foreordination or appointment in advance of the Person whose destiny was decided upon in the plan referred to. Stated succinctly the Granville Sharp rule in Acts 2:23+ equates foreknowledge to a predetermined plan. According to Peter, God's foreknowledge is a deliberate choice. God foreknew not by prior observation, but by bringing into reality His predetermined plan.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Spurgeon writes that "with God there are no contingencies. The mighty charioteer of Providence has gathered up all the reins of all the horses, and He guides them all according to His infallible wisdom. There is a foreknowledge and predestination which concerns all things, from the motion of a grain of dust on the threshing-floor to that of the flaming comet which blazes athwart the sky. Nothing can happen but what God ordains; and therefore, why should we fear? (Barbed Arrows from the Quiver of C. H. Spurgeon)

    Prognosis is used again by Peter explaining that Christ "...was foreknown (prognosis) before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you." (1Pe 1:20-note) In eternity past, before Adam and Eve sinned, God did not just know it would happen but also planned the redemption of sinners through Jesus Christ. In this verse as in 1 Peter 1:2, "foreknown" does not simply refer to awareness of what is going to happen, but conveys the added nuance of a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God. In other words, God brought the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time and believers are foreknown for salvation in the same way Christ was predetermined (or foreordained) before the foundation of the world to be a sacrifice for sins (see discussion of Granville-Sharp rule above in reference to Acts 2:23+)

    Wiersbe - Foreknowledge does not suggest that God merely knew ahead of time that we would believe, and therefore He chose us. This would raise the question, “Who or what made us decide for Christ?” and would take our salvation completely out of God’s hands. (Ed note: To say that God made a decision based on His prevision would mean that there was a time of indecision!) In the Bible, to foreknow means “to set one’s love on a person or persons in a personal way. (Bible Exposition Commentary)

    Regarding foreknowledge, John MacArthur writes that "God pre-thought and pre-determined or predestined each Christian’s salvation...God predetermined to set His love upon certain people. If you are a Christian, you were foreknown by God as a part of that plan. God's foreknowledge of Christ serves as a model of God's foreknowledge of you. Christ is the elect stone--chosen and precious (1Pe 2:6-note)."

    William MacDonald writes that foreknowledge is "knowledge with a purpose that could never be frustrated. It is not enough to say that God foreknew those whom He realized would one day repent and believe. Actually it is His foreknowledge that insures eventual repentance and belief! (Believer's Bible Commentary)

    J I Packer said it this way God "knows, and foreknows, all things, and His foreknowledge is foreordination; He, therefore, will have the last word, both in world history and in the destiny of every man.

    D. Edmond Hiebert writes that proginosko (foreknowledge) "does not imply mere intellectual apprehension; it also indicates an active and affectionate desire to bless."

    Kenneth Wuest writes that foreknowledge "is to be understood less as a passive ‘knowing in advance’ than as an active ‘taking note of’ or an eternal intention to bless."

    William Kelly writes that God's "foreknowledge is of persons, not of their state or conduct; it is not what, but whom He foreknew.


    The discerning believer like all good Bereans needs to be aware that not all well known Christian scholars agree with the preceding interpretation of foreknowledge. Although this website follows no particular school of interpretation (other than the natural, literal approach), you should be aware that those who hold to the "Calvinist" school insist that God knows all events precisely because He sovereignly determines what is to happen in human history. Therefore in the Calvinist mindset, foreknowledge is closely related to foreordination (or predestination). Most Calvinists assert that men are still responsible for their choices and are not merely victims of "blind fate".

    Those known as Arminian distinguish foreknowledge from the foreordination. While salvation and human history are predetermined by God, Arminians argue that individual response to God is not so predetermined. Hence, God can foreknow an event without directly decreeing that event to take place. There are other differences between these two schools of theology but you will need to consult other resources for more in depth discussion.

    Scripture teaches both God’s foreknowledge of all things and the man's responsibility and these truth are like two parallel train tracks that never intersect. Both are true even if they cannot be resolved by our finite minds. To alter either of these truths is to not rightly handle the interpretation of the Word of Truth.
     
  20. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    So once again anti Cal ideas evaporate when view from biblical teaching.
     
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