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The Word Of God In English ...

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Rippon, Dec 4, 2010.

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  1. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I cannot think of any exception to the idea that so many translations translate a first class conditional sentence as a third class conditional sentence. So often the word "if" is used rather than "since". Why?
     
    #61 gb93433, Jul 18, 2014
  2. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    What in the world are you talking about? How does it relate to the OP?
     
    #62 Rippon, Jul 18, 2014
  3. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    It is part of translation work and doing an accurate job of it. The Greek NT is full of first and third class conditional sentences. It would probably be good if you did a google search if you do not know what is meant by first and third conditional sentences.
     
    #63 gb93433, Jul 18, 2014
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    I am in China and cannot google. I can hardly do searches of any kind.

    But what you need to do is stay-on-topic. Focus on the OP. Understand?
     
    #64 Rippon, Jul 18, 2014
  5. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Looks to me that the forum is on translation. If you do not understand conditional sentences what makes you prepared to judge and evaluate translations? English has ways of expressing the conditions in Greek. If it is not done correctly then the translation is incorrect.
     
    #65 gb93433, Jul 18, 2014
  6. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Did you read Ryken's book? If not, then respond to the quotes I provided in this thread.
     
    #66 Rippon, Jul 18, 2014
  7. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Thank you (again) for pointing me to this thread, Rippon.

    For the most part I agree with Ryken. There are areas that I feel the book is weak. I do think that he avoids being critical of the ESV (he was part of the translation team but even members of the NIV team have offered criticism of their translation) - he criticizes the balance between transparency and “thematic interpretation” in the NIV but does not address the balance between transparency and bringing the literary form of the original through translation in the ESV. I do think that he paints the NIV in the same light as more “thought for thought” translations (although he does occasional give NIV credit in places). For me, he may overemphasize literary style (but I do understand that is his area of expertise).

    I do agree with him, however, on the fallacies (to include one we disagree on -the view that all translation is interpretation - pg 85). This is the crux of our disagreement, and Ryken’s observations are in line with my view.
    Anyway, thank you again for directing me to this thread. I do not find Ryken overcritical of the NIV, but perhaps undercritical of the ESV.
     
    #67 JonC, Jul 18, 2014
  8. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I would disagree with these quotes in that often idioms do not have the same meaning in our culture. For example "bowels of mercy" is not used in our culture to express compassion.

    Some words do not translate. Some expressions in the original language are wooden or not used in our language. The Hebrew expression "woman of him" rather than "wife" could be seen as derogatory in our language.

    What the words say to us as we read them may not mean what was actually said in their culture. For example Jn 15:16, ""You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." This has nothing to with election but discipleship and they knew about how disciples of a rabbi were selected. Unless one understands how the disciples of a rabbi were selected it would be easy to read into the text.
     
    #68 gb93433, Jul 18, 2014
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The esv is NOT a real literal translation as both the nas/Nkjv ones are, and that seems to be part of the problem, as it is closer to the 1984 Niv then to either of them!

    But gets promoted as being just like them!
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Jul 19, 2014
  10. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    I believe almost every English translation follows a tradition that does not accurately translate but plays the political football game. Almost every translation translates first class conditional sentences in the Greek NT as third class conditional sentences. Most English translations follow the Anglican tradition of pedobaptism when they translate the Greek word for immerse by transliterating the Greek letters.
     
    #70 gb93433, Jul 19, 2014
  11. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Blah, blah, blah.

    I have warned you before to stay-on-topic. Deal with the subject of the thread. Make remarks about Leland Ryken's book The Word of God in English. If you haven't read it deal with my quotes from the book or anyone else who has observations about the book. Do not derail this thread --it's immature of you.

    Just because this thread is in a form dedicated to Bible Translations doesn't mean that each thread has its specific topics. You can't go in the political forum with a thread focused on the plane that was shot down by a missile and then talk about Hillary's hairstyle! Get with the program gb.
     
    #71 Rippon, Jul 19, 2014
  12. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Jon, there are many times within his book that he criticizes dynamic translations en mass. He does acknowledge that the NIV is the most conservative dynamic version. But he fires away at it by lumping it in with the GNT,CEV,TLB and even The Message!

    He seems to think that however the ESV is worded in a particular passage it gets it right. Those versions that don't follow similar wording are wrong. Then he castigates them for deviating from the original text --as if the original text and the text of the ESV are one and the same.

    Many times when he gives his preferred reading and slams the dynamic ones --he lists a few examples and makes it appear that the NIV/TNIV were in the same category. But he conveniently leaves out the fact that numerous times the NIV/TNIV and NRSV had the same kind of reading. Of course to mention that too many times (he acknowledged it a few times) would go against his thesis.

    And the elephant in the room is the NRSV. As I said, I do not have Ryken's book with me here in China. But he only mentioned the NRSV a few times --negatively for the most part. Yet that translation and the ESV are so much alike it's not funny.

    In short, I am saying he was very selective in his criticism.
     
    #72 Rippon, Jul 19, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 19, 2014
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree, he was very selective in his criticism.
     
    #73 JonC, Jul 20, 2014
  14. gb93433

    gb93433 Active Member
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    Did you not read the quote you posted and what I wrote about? Apparently you did not. So get with the program.
     
    #74 gb93433, Jul 20, 2014
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that we should all agree that the Niv/Hcsb/Esv/nrsv are all in the mediating version camp, with the Nrsv being most liberal, Hcsb most conservative, and esv/Niv pretty mujch straight between those two!
     
    #75 Yeshua1, Jul 22, 2014
  16. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that the NIV and ESV are middle-of-the-road theologically?!!
     
    #76 Rippon, Jul 22, 2014
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    No, more that each of them have attempted to try to saddle between the strictly literal translations, and those who are really free/dynamic ones!

    The translators on both versions are all Evangelical scholars as far as I know...
     
    #77 Yeshua1, Jul 23, 2014
  18. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    When you use the phrase that the HCSB is "most conservative" it is a bit confusing. So when you use the term it has nothing to do with theology? But if you are speaking of translational methodology as "conservative or liberal" that is problematic. The NLTse is more dynamic than the more formal translations, but it is not "liberal" by any stretch.

    And you are claiming that the HCSB is more formal than the ESV? I don't think anyone believes that aside from yourself.
     
    #78 Rippon, Jul 23, 2014
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    More formal then the Niv 2011....
     
    #79 Yeshua1, Jul 24, 2014
  20. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
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    Again, you're not making much sense. You claim that the NRSV is "liberal" and the HCSB is "conservative" and that the ESV and NIV are in the middle. First of all, those tags of liberal and conservative are not helpful. Secondly, the ESV is more form-oriented than the HCSB so it's hard to understand your thinking. The NRSV is also more form-oriented than the HCSB.
     
    #80 Rippon, Jul 24, 2014
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