The World God so Loved !

I am not sure who the "we" is. I am sure you have your own beliefs.
Having said that, You know your heart; your relationship between you and God, and that is all. You cannot speak for anyone else, as in "we." Only God knows the elect. The Bible says quite specifically: "The Lord knows them that are His." We do not.
I know I am saved because I put my trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, and therefore I am one of the elect. The question thus becomes, on what basis does a person know that they are one of the elect. I know I am one of the elect because Christ died for all the sins of the world, and that whosoever will may come. If that were not true, no one could know for sure if they were not one of the elect. For example, perhaps, like in the OT, God only elected Jews. Then we know you would not be one of the elect for you are not a Jew. On what basis does God elect? God elects on the basis of "whosoever will." He simply knows ahead of time those that will choose him. If it were not so, you would have no assurance of salvation.

You came to Christ, and you trusted him. Correct? On that basis you conclude that you are one of the elect. It can't be any other way can it? I have salvation, therefore I am one of the elect. You don't say: "I am one of the elect, therefore I am saved," do you?

And that is what every non-Cal believes, not the other way around.

I question people's understanding of this doctrine and their application of it.

I do know the truth of it.

I didn't say you can't know if you are elect.
1. You can't know for sure if others are elect; you know only your own heart.
2. The big question is: On what basis do you know that you are elect?
3. If it is on the basis: I believed therefore I am elect, then that select world is no longer as select as you claim. It is as John 3:16 says it is. For God so loved the world the whole world, not just a part of it.

 

Preacher4truth,

I have asked other Calvinists a question that they do not even attempt to answer. I would like you to try to answer it.

Calvinists say all were saved before they believed to cause them to believe and repent, if that is so, then why does God say to repent before we perish? How can those capable of repenting perish if they are already saved?

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

 

HP: There are two, not one, realities to knowing of ones election. There are those that know the truth and there are those that say they know the truth and are merely deceived. Both think they know, but Scripture says that many are merely deceived. Oh, they believe with their whole heart they are of the elect, and even will someday stand before God Himself and present their case that they are of the elect, but just believing will not make it so.

Both groups are professing believers, here and at the final judgment. Some will have faith in their faith, but will faith alone save them?


Jas 2:14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Jas 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Will ones faith be perfected and grace abound as one sins every day in thought word and deed?


Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

How are you struggling with "we" when "we" belongs to the ones you yourself addressed, namely what you call "Calvinists?" I fail to see why and how you've lost track of the party you've addressed in the first place and need me to enlighten you as to who this is.

"We" here is in reference to the context of this argument, that is, that you are arguing "we" cannot know, addressing the "Calvinists." That is the "we" I am referring to. I'm sure you already knew that, but maybe not. But now that you do know who you're actually addressing we should be able to move forward.

Uh, the "we" is referring to "Calvinists" who you are addressing. Again. I am expressing "our" beliefs (general calvinist beliefs). You're attempting feebly to turn that into Calvinists claiming they know who the elect are prior to salvation. You'd have to turn it into that meaning in order for you to feel like you've won or to feel you are right. Instead, let's keep this conversation in context, and lose your attempt to create a strawman. No calvinist claims to know these things, you misrepresent them but you need to in order to have a miniscule chance in "winning."

So, for the record, "we" are not claiming to know who the elect are prior to their coming to Christ.

Yes, the Scriptures say "The Lord knows who are His" but it doesn't mean believers cannot know. That's you using eisegetical interpretational methods. You should know better than this. Show me IN this text where it says "we cannot know." Again, show it in the text.

So the whole entire world is elect? You're a universalist now? This is exactly what you are teaching. You are a Rob Bell proponent and enthusiast? This is what you are saying. You need to rethink your position. You've just made a strawman - against your own beliefs. At least I hope this is against your own beliefs, otherwise you are a universalist.

As I've said in the past, a person can deny a belief, but looking at their theology, this belief can be affrimed, even when they deny believing it. This is proven by your above quote. I'm sure you deny believing it, while at the same time you just taught it as your belief, that is, universalism in your statement. I will however give you the benefit of doubt.

Not really in the way you worded it, but yes I am saved. God chose me, and drew me to Him, and saved me. I didn't come approaching to God, He came to me. He chose me. I am a believer, and all glory? His. I didn't come to Him as some say, and prove I can trust in Him just like exercising faith in sitting in a chair, and then He saved me accordingly. He did all the saving and granted faith. He came to me and chose me. He gets all the glory.

Yes, and I can say it both ways. "I am one of the elect, therefore He saved me." "He saved me, therefore I am elect." Can you?

"Every" non-cal? If you say so as the self-prolaimed spokesman for every non-cal which I highly doubt as valid, but OK. This is yet another strawman. You don't represent all non-cals, you are certainly misrepresenting some.

You question the plain teaching of the passage of 1 Thessalonians 1:4 because it proves you incorrect in your theory that we cannot know if we are elect, which are things you've stated. Why do I say this? This whole argument started on this basis, that we cannot know, and you've attempted to turn it to others stating they can know who the unsaved elect are.

Also, you "question" nothing, there is no question, just a statement that you do, but you have no answers, and I certainly don't see this invisible question you have for people who believe this passage. All I see is your pretense to have dispelled this truth somewhere, and that somewhere you questioned some peoples understanding and application of the passage.

Plainly this passage says they know they were chosen of God. I apply it and understand it at face value, because that is how this passage is to be taken. Go ahead, please question this and question the application of it. I don't think you can, unless you throw in a hypothetical somewhere, a red herring that doesn't address what I am saying, but that you would attempt to go play in another sand box and address it under completely different terms, while making pretense to be addressing what I've stated as my belief. I await to see where you can go with this. :love2: :smilewinkgrin:

Then stop pretending you have some magic rebuttal and questioning of peoples beliefs of the passage. You don't.

The only thing I see here is backtracking and rewording of questioning how a person can know they are elect, and you casting doubt as to whether one can or not know these things. Here is in fact what you said:

You've implied it and you're again implying it below. In addition you're attempting to paint the whole thing as if "we" believe we can know who the elect are prior to salvation, which "we" don't believe. Also, since you're not sure others are elect, stop referring to them as brothers and sisters. Call them by their names. Scriptures in fact do show us we can know persons are saved, and we can also know those who are not. This is not an acid test, but we can get a pretty good sense from these. The problem comes in from some fundamentalists when they judge them by what they do and where they go, and according to teachings and traditions of men akin to Pharisaism.

If you say so. Scripture seems to indicate otherwise.

Why is that such a big question? :laugh:

I've already given you this answer. You even quoted it, yet, you need me to show you again? How interesting. You know the answer it's been given to you time and again.

"I'm elect therefore I believed." You have it all backwards, which is where your spurious errors come in, off of a faulty basis and premise. In other words you see that you chose God, we see it Scripturally, that it is rather that God chose us. Big, huge difference.

Another, your faulty premise comment doesn't logically conclude that teh slect world is no longer as select as I claim. Where did I make this statement? That's right, I didn't, you did in your assuming mind that you think you know all that I believe. That's another strawman on your part.

You do know what a strawman is, correct? It's misrepresenting anothers position. So far, you've done it at several times here, misrepresdenting yourself, your own camp, and Calvinists. Let's put an end to that, you're having enough of a problem rebutting what "we" do believe.

Oh, and by the way, Paul believed in this "select" world. He called them "elect." 2 Timothy 2:8-10. Jesus referred to them as "His sheep" and others as not His sheep. There's more, but there is no need to go on with you over that.

Have a good day my friend.

 

HP: I am not accusing you or calling your salvation into question, but I am going to ask you concerning the glory you speak of. Tell me Preacher. What 'glory' is God going to receive by those that have in the end the same testimony as every lost sinner, in that they sin every day in thought word and deed? How does a believer, continuing in the same sin business that condemns the rest of the world, bring 'glory' to God? Seems to me that God is going to receive about as much 'glory' from some professing believers as he will from the most wicked sinner that ever lived.

What practical good in this present world is a religion that does not free its constituents from a present evil lifestyle? I believe I would know precisely what the world calls such believers, and it start with the letter "h."

How will God receive glory at the judgment for allowing a bunch of individuals into a holy heaven who are still practicing the sin business on a daily basis as so many testify to? How will the ones sent to a devil's hell feel towards the justice of God, and how will 'glory' be given to such justice, if the sinners are condemned for breaking the laws of God while doing precisely what believers were doing, and cognizant of doing by their own testimony of their own lips, and that no less than on a daily basis?

Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

 

I have seen your posts. Don't pretend to represent all Calvinists. You don't. When you debate here you represent your own beliefs. Thus you can do away with the "we." There are many that disagree with you that call themselves Calvinists. I don't have to be enlightened on that; perhaps you do.

Represent your beliefs only, not the beliefs of others whom you don't know. Clear enough?

Perhaps you don't even know what Calvin believed. You are so far off course. Just represent your own beliefs.
For example:

According to your own posts you don't even believe what Calvin believed and yet you call yourself a Calvinist. So just represent your own beliefs. I hope I have made my point clear enough by now.

No, I state my beliefs. You state yours. I show you where you are wrong. That is how it works. :thumbs:

Good for you.

The text speaks for itself. "The Lord knows them that are His." It doesn't say "believers know." That is exactly the opposite of what it is teaching.

If you want context, here it is:
(2Ti 2:17) And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;
(2Ti 2:18) Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
(2Ti 2:19) Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
--Timothy did not know at first that these false teachers were in his church at Ephesus. They just acted like normal Christians. But the Lord knew. The Lord always knows them that are his. Paul reassures Timothy that these two men, who were found out to be false teachers, will receive their just due. But at first Timothy was not aware. But the Lord knew those that are His.

God created all.

Did I say that? Why the false accusation. God saves those who call upon him. I take it you don't know the meaning of John 3:16. Even Calvin believed "the world" meant all the world, and not just the elect.

You are not the Calvinist you think you are. Rethink your position. You don't believe John 3:16. You have a limited understanding of this Scripture.

No, I am not a universalist; but I do believe the Bible. Look carefully at John 3:16; 1John 2:2. You can't ignore these Scriptures.

You accuse me of denying a belief. Then you accuse me of universalism.
But you can't answer my questions. That is pitiful.
On what basis does God elect you? How do you know? If God elects only a limited few, how do you know that you are one of those limited few. You stand on shaky ground with no assurance of salvation. However if God elected on the basis that He atoned for all the sins of all the world as stated in 1John 2:2, then and only then do you have a chance of salvation.

You are from Missouri, so I doubt if you have ever heard of the famous "Calgary Stampede," an event held every summer, known almost world-wide. It is more or less a "cow-boy event" as some would call it. One event is "calf roping." A calf is let loose, and one on a horse is timed to see how fast he can rope that calf and then tie his feet so he can't move. Is that what the Lord did with you? Come after you with a rope, and haul you in? I don't find that concept in Scripture, and I don't think you can either.
Rather, according to John 16:7-11, the Holy Spirit convicted you of sin in your life. On that basis you came to Christ. You believed. If there was no belief there was no salvation. Christ did not "rope" you into salvation, like the cowboy did to the calf. You weren't forced. You believed. Without faith there is no salvation.

You came to Him because in his sovereignty He both allowed you, and knew you would come to you. Then it was you, who put your trust in Him. Your faith, not God's faith was put in Christ. "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ..." Inherent in that statement is the subject "you," as it is with every imperative. "You" is the subject of the command. It is you believe or you have faith. That is the understood subject of this imperative statement. It does not say "You believe with Christ's faith." That is ludicrous.

Is that how you evangelize. Would you knock on someone's door or talk to a stranger about Christ, and tell him:
"I am one of God's elect, and therefore he saved me. I am just making an inquiry: Are you one of the elect of God? If so, you need to allow Christ to make it known to you."
Really???

 

No, not every non-cal. I knew I had mis-spoke as soon as I posted.

(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
--You do know that there is an entire thread on "Proof-texting"? Is this one of your favorites? To answer the question, yes I know that I am one of the elect. But on what basis do I know that. I keep asking you that question, and you keep avoiding it. Why? I never said we cannot know. We can. But on what basis can we know. We can only know that we are one of the elect if Christ died for the sins of the whole world. We cannot know if Christ died for a select few. Otherwise you could never know if you were one of those select few. Perhaps those select few (the "world" in John 3:16) is just confined to first century people? That eliminates you doesn't it? Who are the select few? How do you know?

It is obvious that you don't understand John 3:16. Even Calvin disagrees with you.

I am not sure at this point what passage you are referring to. If you are referring to 1Tim.1:4, I have already explained it in detail.
The Lord knows them that are his. It is self-explanatory.
John 3:16. Read Calvin's commentary. He disagrees with you.
You are truly a confused man.

Aah, you are talking of 1Thes.1:4. What is there to refute. Nothing.
I have already done that.

(1Th 1:4) Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
--Is this a difficult verse for you? What do you need to be explained?
I know I am one of the elect. As I have said, on what basis do you know that you are one of the elect? Why can't you answer that question?

If I have cast doubt then you are not very sure of your salvation are you?

Not according to Jer.17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things; who can know it?
The answer is that only God knows the heart. You don't. You can speak for yourself and that is all. The Lord knows them that are His; you don't. In fact if your election is based on just a select few you can't even know if you are one of those select few, can you? Not even Calvin believed that nonsense.

It speaks to the heart of so-called Calvinism. Your inability to answer it shows the error in your theology.

If that first premise is wrong. Then what is right. What is right is: I believed therefore I am elect. In order for that to be true, then Christ had to die for all the sins of all the world.

Not a strawman. It was a logical conclusion drawn from your beliefs as they were stated.

You will have to point out specifically where I have misrepresented your beliefs. Be sure to make the difference between me drawing a conclusion from your beliefs and what you actually believe. There is a difference.

When does a person become one of His sheep?

 

So what if one says they have believed and God died for the whole world. How can you or any other know that you are included and that you have not simply deceived yourself into believing you are something you are not?

I am not bringing into question ones salvation. I am trying to establish valid evidence that one is indeed a true believer and not one that just thinks he is one. There will be many in the last day that will even stand before God and argue with God Himself as to their standing before Him. They certainly thought they had believed and were believers. Think for a moment of how deep deception can go.

What certain check, and even then by faith not absolute knowledge, has God given us to make our calling and election certain?

 

It is not your job to determine if another is a true believer. You are to examine yourself, not others.

2 Cor 13
5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. 6 But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified.

Only YOU know if you are in the faith. That is between you and God. You cannot know if others are in the faith. That is between them and God.

 

Which is my entire point of your entire post. Thanks.

 

Do you really have a point, except to say to all that you are unable to answer my post.

 

Your post was thoroughly answered and rebutted. There is nothing worthy on your last post to respond to. It's filled with strawman arguments and snarky comments (i.e. the snide comment that you call others knowing if they are elect into question, twisted into you thinking you've accomplished making me doubt my salvation). Such behavior isn't becoming of a former missionary, a teacher in a bible college of some sort, let alone a Christian.

This is why I left off dialogue with you in the past and will again do so today. You're not worth my effort or time, and I won't come down to you to be engaged with such prattle.

From a fellow who argued for a month that indicative mood is imperative mood with others, (where you falsely claimed to be born again is a command) without ever admitting his error is telltale of why it is not profitable to engage with you.

- Peace

 

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Bro, he'll never admit to it, I'm afraid you're wasting your time.

 

You can say it in whatever mood you want.
It is imperative that a man be born again. And that is the truth. If you don't believe that you are in big trouble.

As to your above paragraph, if you don't know the basis of why or how you are elected you should really find out. Study your Bible more.

 

I don't assume; perhaps you do.

(Joh 1:29) The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

(Rev 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

(1Jn 2:2) And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

 

Context is always king. It rules.
Jesus said to Nicodemus: Nicodemus, you must be born again.
It can't get any simpler than that.
Jesus was giving Nicodemus a straight forward command. It was necessary for him to be born again. If he wasn't he would not be able to enter the kingdom of God.

Charlie, eat your vegetables or you will grow hungry. Same thing. A command with a consequence. If you don't obey the command there will be a consequence.

 

I do. But don't mix apples with oranges.
The Lord opens my eyes to the Scriptures. That is called illumination. He gives us his Holy Spirit for precisely that purpose (1Cor.2:12). But that wasn't the point of our discussion.

The point of this discussion was the unbeliever, and the new birth.
God does not give the unbeliever faith. You and the Calvinist maintain that God gives spiritual gifts, and the fruit of the Spirit, such as faith, to unsaved individuals. This position is absolutely ludicrous. Since when does God give spiritual gifts to the unsaved?? He doesn't; never has!

God loved the world--all of it--the whole world. He died for all of our sins, that whoever believes in him might have eternal life. God doesn't give faith to that person. He may convict that person of sin in his life, but he doesn't give him the faith to believe.