1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Theology - Study of God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Apr 17, 2014.

  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,286
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is a difficult topic. Scripture, I believe, leans against Yeshua1’s argument as Jesus “increased in wisdom and in years, and in divine and human favor.” The problem, IMHO, with believing that Jesus did not develop as a normal child is that it would mean that He was somewhat less than human. It’d mean He didn’t “set aside” divine attributes to become human and was not in complete submission and reliance on the Father. As theologians past asserted, what the Word did not take to Himself, He could not redeem. (The difficultly is not in accepting it as biblical truth, but in understanding that biblical truth).
     
  2. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, rather that in the Incarnation, God the Son assumed, took on flesh and human nature, one without any sin residing though, as the Virgin birth kept Him from being tainted by the Fall!

    Jesus as a man did grow up, learn more etc, but that was as to His Humanity, as His Deity NEVER had to do such!

    I was referring to mainly God the father and the Holy Spirit, as neither of them assumed limitations of human form/flesh. so God was really NEVER having to learn new things within the essense of His Deity!

    And once he ascended, the father gave back the fullness of His glory to jesus again, as he had assumed limitations while here in human flesh, so rest assured he once again knows when he is coming back for example!
     
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This being Easter, why not consider an Easter story. On that Sunday, two men were walking about 7 miles to a town near Jerusalem. They encountered a third man who asked them questions. They did not recognize the man, but the reason for the lack of recognition is left unstated.

    One thing we know for sure, they had preconceptions about who Jesus was that were wrong, but they were looking for someone who would fulfill those preconceptions, like Yeshua1. They were looking for someone who would free Israel from the grip of Rome.

    How was this situation remedied? Why they studied scripture and learned what it actually said about Jesus.

    He is risen!!
     
  4. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The reason is not left unstated. In Luke 24:16 it says :"but they were kept from recognizing him." God kept them from recognizing Jesus. The appearance of Jesus was not altered. His form was the same as before.

    You asked how the situation was remedied. In verse 31 of the same chapter it says :"Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him,and he disappeared from their sight." In the period from from verse 16 to verse 31 they didn't study the Scripture to learn what it said about Jesus. Their physical eyes were opened to reveal that Jesus was indeed Jesus.
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,286
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I’ve been wondering about the difference in the account at the tomb between the synoptic gospels and John. (I haven’t had enough time to examine them, only briefly, but they do seem different at first glance).
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am going to explain this to you one time. The text does not say how they were kept from recognizing Jesus. You have bought into the speculation that God kept them. This is the sort of idolatry I am addressing.

    Next, you deny verse 27. Now the walk of 7 miles would take 2 to 4 hours so the study conducted by Jesus could have been extensive.

    Finally we get "their eyes were opened" but the text does not say how. Again, some speculate that refers to a supernatural blinding followed by removal of the inability. But that is just guesswork, adding to scripture. They may have recognized the manner in which Jesus broke bread and gave thanks. It just does not say.

    Preconceptions about Jesus blinded those two to some degree, and preconceptions exist in your view of the passage.
     
  7. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am not sure the difficulty is all that problematic. Recall that the long ending to Mark is under a cloud. If you remove that account, then all the other accounts mesh well. I did a study of the issue and could post my dubious effort if you would like.
     
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,286
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Thanks...yes, I would like...perhaps, if it is not too much trouble, you could PM me so as not to derail the thread.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Atheists assert that the Gospel accounts cannot be reconciled or harmonized without making unreasonable assumptions. But upon closer inspection, most if not all of the alleged “disagreements” are not in the text but in the skeptic’s interpretation. For example:

    Who carried the cross to the place of execution? Matthew, Mark and Luke say Simon, but John says Jesus. But is this what the text says? No. John says that Jesus started to carry the cross (probably the cross piece, light enough to carry if you have not been beaten to a bloody pulp) to the destination. It does not say He arrived at the place of execution still carrying the cross. So it seems a manufactured disagreement to support the contention that the bible is unreliable.

    What were the exact words on the sign about Jesus head?
    Mark, “The King of the Jews”
    Matthew, “This is Jesus The King of the Jews”
    Luke, “This is the King of the Jews
    John, “Jesus the Nazarene the King of the Jews.”

    But do any of the Gospels say that there account is exclusive, or could other words be on the sign? Note that Mark says “the king of the Jews, Luke adds, this is and Matthew adds Jesus, and John drops “this is” and adds the Nazarene. So if the sign read, “This is Jesus the Nazarene the King of the Jews”, then all four accounts would be in agreement. So it seems that the accounts of the inscription are not necessarily in disagreement, just differing based on what the author chose to include. Mark says the charge against him (Jesus) included the inscription “the king of the Jews”, but does not rule out the possibility that the inscription included some reference to Jesus (i.e. Jesus, or this is, or Jesus the Nazarene or a combination thereof). A similar observation can be made concerning Matthew, Luke and John. Also, John tells us the inscription was Aramaic, Latin and Greek, while the other Gospels do not include this detail. Again, a difference but not a disagreement, and if the words were not identical among the three languages, it is possible that Matthew, Luke and John quoted differing versions, with Mark making reference to the “charge” only and did not include the reference to Jesus in one or more of the versions.

    What did the Robbers say?
    Mark, they both hurled insults.
    Matthew, same as Mark
    Luke, one hurled insults, the other sided with Jesus.
    John, nothing was recorded.

    According to Matthew, both robbers were casting this insult, “He trusts in God, let Him deliver Him now, if He takes pleasure in him, for He said, I am the Son of God.” The insult recorded by Mark is, “Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe.” Luke says one of the robbers says “Are you not the Christ, save yourself and us”. The other robber then says, “Jesus remember me when you come in your Kingdom” demonstrating a faith in God. I think it is possible that the second robber wanted Jesus to prove he was the Christ and thus initially participated in hurling a challenging insult, but did not want to escape just punishment because of remorse based on his belief in the Father and so he rebuked the first robber. Again a difference in the accounts but not a disagreement. The difference in the words recorded could just be a difference in the wording of a repeated insult, all concerning the same point (save yourself and prove you are God) and the absence of the detail in John could be the result of John choosing to leave it out and include other details.

    What were Jesus’ last words?
    Mark, Jesus cried out, but the words if any were not recorded. (Mk. 15:37)
    Matthew: Same as Mark (Mt. 27:50)
    Luke: Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Lk. 23:46)
    John: “It is finished” (Jn. 19:30)

    Obviously Matthew and Mark could be referring to the same outcry as Luke. And if John is recording a prior statement because it ties in with the assignment acknowledged in John 17, then no disagreement is apparent. Jesus could have said, It is finished bowed his head and cried out, “Father into your hands I commit my spirit.” Again, the difference being in what the gospel author chose to include, but not creating a disagreement in the account.

    Who went to the tomb with spices to prepare Jesus’ body.
    Mark: 3 women on Sunday Morning just after sunrise.
    Matthew: No record.
    Luke: 4 or more women on Sunday morning very early while still dark.
    John: Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus on Friday before sundown.

    Before we jump into this difference, lets review the texts concerning the women witnesses. Matthew (27:55) says that many women who had followed Jesus from Galilee witnessed the crucifixion. John says Mary, the mother of Jesus’ was a witness. He says Mary Magdalene was a witness. He says Mary, the wife of Clopas, was a witness. He says the sister of Mary, the mother of Jesus, was a witness. Now Mary the wife of Clopas may be the mother of James the younger and Joses. And the sister of Mary (mother of Jesus) may be Salmone, the mother of James and John. Additional ladies may also have been witnesses such as the mother of the sons of Zebedee if Salome is not she and Joanna.

    On Friday, Jesus is taken down from the cross and placed in a nearby tomb. This is done by Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus. They put spice on the body and wrap Jesus’ body with linen. Luke (23:55-56) says the women who had followed Jesus from Galilee witnessed the body of Jesus either as it was being prepared or after it was prepared, and that among these unspecified number of women were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses. After this they go and prepare spices and perfume to take back to the tomb on Sunday morning. It appears they decided to obtain more spices on Sunday morning because Mark says Mary Magdalene, Mary mother of Joses and Salmone purchased spices on Sunday morning.

    Now lets review Sunday Morning. It appears the ladies may have left for the tomb before sunrise, while it was still dark but perhaps very near first light. Mark 16:1 says Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James (the Younger) and Salome went to the tomb. While on their way, just after sunrise, they wonder who will roll the stone away because they had seen Joseph put it in place. Matthew’s account meshes well with Mark’s account. Matthew says Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (mother of James the Younger and Joses, and wife of Clopas) at dawn went to the tomb. The fact that Matthew only mentions two ladies does not indicate that others were not present. Luke (24:1) says an unspecified number of women took spices they had prepared, and went to the tomb. John 20:1 says while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb. John indicates she was not alone in verse 2 with the phrase “we do not know where they have put him.”

    In summary, the number of women is indeterminate but included at least three. There is no disagreement concerning the time of day or concerning the spices and perfumes.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    (Continued from prior post)

    What happened to the rock that sealed the tomb? Again, the accounts do not conflict. The rock was removed when the ladies returned to the tomb. Matthew (28:2) does not say the ladies saw the rock being removed, the text only implies that by the sequence of the information provided, that the rock was rolled away while the ladies were on the way to the tomb. Mark (16:4) says the rock had been rolled away and as they approached to enter the tomb they see what they thought was a young man sitting on the right side (perhaps on the rock). Luke says nearly the same thing except that his account also includes a second man gleaming like lightning. It also appears that the at least one of the men talked to some of the ladies while they were wondering about how the tomb became open but before they entered the tomb. (Luke 24:4) It also seems Mary Magdalene had already entered the tomb and did not get the message. Otherwise, why would Mary Magdalene say, “we don’t know where they have put him”? Also note that perhaps due to the conflicting information (Mary Magdalene’s account differs from some of the others) the apostles did not believe them because their words seemed like nonsense (Luke 24:11). Consistent with this understanding is Matthew 28:8, which says that while on their way to the disciples, Jesus appeared to some of the women. Again, it seems Mary Magdalene was not with them. But then John finishes the account (John 20:10) and tells how Mary, after being in tears with perplexity as to the whereabouts of Jesus, is restored to well being after returning to the tomb with the disciples. After the disciples had left, Jesus appears and says, “Woman, why are you crying”. I think this is the timeless message of the resurrection for all Christians, “Why are you crying?”

    Did the ladies enter the tomb? Mary Magdalene certainly did, otherwise how did she know it was empty but not get the angel’s message? Luke indicates that some of the ladies may not have entered the tomb after being told Jesus is not there. Mark is consistent “as they entered, they saw a young man…” probably indicating some of the group entered and some stopped when the young man addressed them. Some of these that stopped probably entered as requested by the young man, while others may have remained outside. The text simply does not say.

    How did the disciples react to the mixed message of the women? Why didn’t Mary Magdalene learn of the message from the others? Possibly because they were so afraid they did not talk among themselves (Mark 16:8). Did the disciples believe the women?
    Matthew does not describe the initial encounter with the women returning from the empty tomb for the first time. Mark also does not describe the encounter. Luke says the disciples did not believe the message. John says Peter and John believed only after seeing the empty tomb that Jesus was not there. So if the women who had seen Jesus on the way to the disciples had told the disciples, Peter and John did not believe them, which of course is consistent with all the other gospel accounts.

    To whom did Jesus first appear?
    I think his first appearance was to some of the women initially returning from the empty tomb (Matthew 28:8), then to Mary Magdalene after returning to the tomb with Peter and John. I discount Mark 16:9-20 because the passage may be an addition because it does not appear in early manuscripts of Mark. Luke does not mention the appearance with the woman, but places chronologically the appearance to Cleopas as occurring later.
    John does not mention the appearance of Jesus with the woman initially returning from the empty tomb, but places the appearance to Mary Magdalene chronologically later.
     
  11. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Please forgive posts 29 and 30 which address a specific request of JonC.

    Returning to the topic of the study of God through study of the attributes of Jesus, can we say He is immutable, i.e. the same yesterday, today and forever? See Hebrews 13:8
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    33,286
    Likes Received:
    3,547
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Van, thank you for the reply. I do not have time tonight to study in detail your comments but I will tomorrow.

    Thanks again,
    John
     
  13. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The Lord, for His purposes, caused them not to recognize Him.
    What idolatry?! What I said was not at all idolatrous. Do you wish to attribute it to Satan?
    No denial of verse 27 whatsoever. After Jesus had explained the Scriptures to them they still did not recognize Him. They participated in other activities. Then, in verse 31 their eyes were opened and it doesn't look as if their eyes opened of their own accord --the Lord opened them.

    You labor under misapplied misconceptions.:laugh:
     
  14. Rippon

    Rippon Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2005
    Messages:
    19,715
    Likes Received:
    585
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mere speculations on your part Van. The church of God which He bought with His own blood" says Acts 20:28. In Ephesians 5:25 it tells us that "Christ is the head of the church,His body,of which He is the Savior."

    Christ did not purchase the Church (and everyone else) as you would like to add in your expanded Van edition of the Bible. Neither is Christ the head of the Church (and everybody else). No, He is the Savior of only those He saves --His Body --the Church.
     
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2000
    Messages:
    20,253
    Likes Received:
    1,381
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ooooooo. Ouch. :thumbs:
     
  16. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    We have at least three people who claim they can read between the lines with certainty on this thread. Christ did not die for all, but for all [sorts of men.] Christ did not die for the church, but for the church [only.] Again and again, in order to pour a doctrine into the text, they add to the text, living not by the word of God but by the speculation of men.

    Returning to topic, did Jesus (the Word) have a beginning or is He eternal? Eternal, John 1:1-3.
     
  17. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did Jesus demonstrate God is holy, without spot, blemish or sin? Yes. 1 Peter 1:19
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus is eternal in regards to His Deity, but His humanity was assumed and born 2000 yrs ago!
     
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    26,913
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Lets see, before Abraham was, does it read I had not been born or I am. Is Jesus a man who took on the form of God, or is Jesus God who took on the form of man? Theology 101
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesusof Naraeth did NOT exist until he was born of the Virgin mary, but he did always exist as God the Son, who when he became Incarnated as Jesus took on His humanity!

    God/Man, forever dual natured now on!
     
Loading...