Theoretical sinlessness

Here we read what is said about Cornelius before he heard the gospel and before he was saved:

"And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee" (Acts 10:22).

How do you explain that?

Here is what Peter said to him before he heard the gospel and was saved:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).

How do you explain that?

 

Yep, Cornelius absolutely refutes Total Depravity, but you'll never get the other side to admit it.

 

So Cornelius was saved by the law?

 

Cornelius was a Gentile, and the Gentiles have not the law (Ro.2:14).

Now please explain these facts:

Here we read what is said about Cornelius before he heard the gospel and before he was saved:

"And they said, Cornelius the centurion, a just man, and one that feareth God, and of good report among all the nation of the Jews, was warned from God by an holy angel to send for thee into his house, and to hear words of thee" (Acts 10:22).

How do you explain that?

Here is what Peter said to him before he heard the gospel and was saved:

"Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10:34-35).

How do you explain that?

 

No, Cornelius was not saved until he heard and believed the gospel from Peter and received the Holy Spirit.

But for a long time, probably years before he was saved (regenerated), he had faith in God, and he gave alms to the poor which were recognized and accepted by God. He prayed always, and his prayers were heard by God.

All this for years (because he had a good reputation among all the Jews which takes time) before he received the Spirit.

This shows an unregenerate man can have faith and even do good works accepted by God.

Cornelius refutes the doctrine of Total Depravity.

When the scriptures say there is none good, it is speaking of 100% perfection, it is not saying natural man cannot do good things.

Luk 6:33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same.

Jesus said sinners are not just able to do good, they actually do good.

Some will argue this is horizontal toward man and not vertical towards God, but Cornelius refutes this.

And if Cain had listened to God and given a proper sacrifice, God said he would have been accepted. The fact he did not does not negate God's implied promise.

Total Depravity is false.

 

The only thing you have proved with your half-baked exegesis is that you do not understand either "total depravity" or the Scriptures that you seek to exegete.

Sinners, like all people (and as all ARE sinners, that would include everyone) live under the grace of God that, as the Bible states, "God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust." The mere example of a "good work" in no way refutes total depravity, nor does it mean that one is a believer in God. It just means that someone did a good work in keeping with those listed in Scripture. Animals do not have souls and yet even they can, from time-to-time pull off some example of a "good work," rescuing a child from a pool, barking to warn of an impending accident, pulling agricultural equipment, etc. Good works by themselves prove nothing at all except that we are alive and under the common grace of God.

Total depravity does not mean that we MUST ALWAYS do the worst possible work. Yet, that is the point you are arguing against. Why? I'm not sure, for by now you should understand the point better after all the debates you've seen. But in any case, before you argue further, check your facts and understand what you are arguing against!

 

Give me a break, I have heard Calvinists here say everything an unregenerate man does is evil because it is done for the wrong motive MANY times. You may not personally believe this, but it common among Calvinists. And I don't know of any Calvinist that believes a person can have real faith in God (which Cornelius had) before being regenerated by the Spirit.

It is impossible for anyone to properly understand Calvinism, because no two Calvinists believe the same.

 

First, this illustrates man is justified, not by the law...but by faith.

You say so yourself...Gentiles did not have the law.

Which is why Paul goes to all the trouble to explain that that which might be known of God is both internal as well as evidenced by creation itself.

Second, Gentiles were not prohibited from the Jew's religion, but provision was made for them as well, though a careful separation between the created, not chosen, people of God was carefully followed.

First, how often did God use angels in the lives of Gentiles for the purpose of salvation? It should be carefully noted that Acts records the beginning of the Church, and within this period we see that there are events that are not replicated today. Do Angels appear to men to tell them, "This is where you go to hear the Gospel?"

As stated above, this man was apart from the law, yet we see, even as in the example of Hebrews 11, this man is declared just, even as those before the law in Hebrews 11 are. But, he is not saved. That is the heart of the discussion.

What is being missed is that when the Angel speaks to Cornelius, he does not say "Cornelius you are a just man because you keep the law..."



Acts 10

4And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.


If Cornelius were righteous, he would have had no need to go see Peter, right?


Second, and probably more important...you say yourself, "before he was saved."

His fear of the Lord must assuredly come from a knowledge of the law, but his salvation was through Jesus Christ.

Same way I explain Abraham, who also did not have the law.

But Abraham, like all, had a need for a savior, and could not be righteous unto life.

What is there to explain? That this man feared God and worked righteousness...and still needed to be saved through Christ?

God bless.

 

And at that point he received the life of God and the imputed righteousness of Christ.

Despite his good works and prayers and fear of God, he was still in need of Christ, because man cannot attain to the righteousness of God.

Abraham was called the friend of God, yet he lied.

David was said to be a man after God's own heart, yet he committed adultery and murder.

Can you see in those examples that a man can be proclaimed to be righteous, even after the heart of God, yet...he still sins?

When life begins for man.

And still be in need of the righteousness that reaches the condition f perfection which Christ Himself was required.

Not really. He was still, despite his deeds...not sinless, and still in need of a Savior.

To suggest that he met the righteous requirement of the law denies many verses that do not suggest, but declare plainly that man cannot help but sin.

No-one suggests that. It is because of man's nature that he cannot 100% be sinless, and 1%, last time I checked, places man in the category of sinner.

Note...sinners also do even the same.

Sinners.

He also said apart from Him...they had no life.

When did Cornelius have life? Let me quote you:

He received life when he received the Spirit of God.

Before then he did not, as Christ said, have life. Unless you agree that man is born again spiritually twice, as one here has suggested, then we can conclude that he was, at birth, bereft of life, the life of God.

He could do good, certainly, but he could not do good...100%.

James does not. He deals with the horizontal relationship of man with man.

The context will clearly bear that out.

Yes, I saw the commentary on Cain...sheesh.

Genesis 4

6And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?

7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.



Look at Strong's breakdown:


Gen 4:7 If 518 thou doest well 3190 , shalt thou not be accepted 7613? and if thou doest not well 3190 , sin 2403 lieth 7257 at the door 6607. And unto thee [shall be] his desire8669, and thou shalt rule 4910 over him.

Notice that "over him" is not keyed. While the implication is there, and the translation relies heavily upon similar structure in ch. 3, there is no justification for teaching that Cain could rule over sin.

It would be more likely to carry the meaning that if he does not well, sin lies at the door, and desire shall rule.

And unto thee his desire...one word.

[shall be]...inserted.

and thu shalt rule...one word.

over him...implied.



Romans 5:21

King James Version (KJV)

21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.


Shall we deny that sin has reigned in the life of man? And now, that grace has reigned?

That's not true...lol.

 

According to the Calvinist's own confession of faith "The light of nature sheweth that there is a God, who hath lordship and sovereignty over all, is good, and doth good unto all, and is therefore to be feared..." (The Westminster Confession of Faith; 21/1).

In the following verses we can see that "all men" can know God's eternal power and divine nature based soley on the light of nature:

"The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse" (Ro.1:18-20).

Those who "suppress the truth" of that which God has made plain are "without excuse" when they deny the existence of God. Another display of God's eternal power revealed in nature, the weather, results in many having a fear or reverance of God:

"He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth.After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard...Fair weather cometh out of the north: with God is terrible majesty...Men do therefore fear him" (Job 37:3-4,22,24).

The Hebrew word translated "fear" in this verse means "to inspire reverence or godly fear or awe" (Gesenius's Lexicon).

This demonstrates that "all men" have the ability to know that God exists and all men therefore have the ability to have a reverence of God.

And here is what is said about those who fear God:

"And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation" (Lk.1:50).

Since all men have the ability to believe that God exists and all men have the ability to fear god then all men have the possibility of receiving the mercy of God.

 

And as soon as you speak with a Calvinist, I am sure he will be happy to accomodate you with an answer.

Me, I am a mutt.

Perhaps I could be considered a "mutinist" when it comes to groups and labels...lol.

And yes...the pun was intended.

 

In response to Darrell #109

When I say Cornelius refutes Total Depravity, I am speaking of the Calvinist view that holds unregenerate man cannot have true faith in God or perform any good work that is acceptable to God. Cornelius refutes this, he had true faith and his works and prayers were accepted with God. He did all this before he heard and believed the gospel and received the Spirit. This refutes Total Depravity in the Calvinist view.

I have never said Cornelius, or Abraham, or David, or any other person never sinned. I don't know where you got that, but you didn't get it from me. I would appreciate if you did not misrepresent me.

 

And that men were once in right standing with God, why did Jesus say we must be born AGAIN? What is the definition of "again"?

In the parable of the prodigal son, why did Jesus twice say the young man was ALIVE AGAIN? How can you be "alive again" if you were born dead?

Why does God call infants who were sacrificed to idols MY CHILDREN in Eze 16:21?
If we are born in sin, children of wrath and of the devil, how could God call these infants "my children"?

Why does 1 Pet 2:25 say we were as sheep going astray, but are now RETURNED to Jesus? How can you return to Jesus if you were born separated from him in sin at birth?

Answer those questions.

 

Wiman, your line of questioning is right on, and your logic consistent with truth. :thumbsup:

My question to Darrell would be this. Do spiritually dead men have spiritual insight? If so, how can that be? If not, where does it say that all from birth have no spiritual insight?

 

God calls them His Children because they are the children of the Jews, the Jews were a people unto God. In the Jews, there were those who really loved God, and there were also Jews who did not; however, the Jews obeyed the law of works, whether or not they had faith, everyone knew they belonged to God. Even when they did not obey, they were a people who belonged to God. However, to be clear, God did not like it that people honored Him with their lips and their hearts were far from Him. In addition, when there would be Jews who did horrible things, the Bible says God would have them die; consider the Jews in the dessert who disobeyed.
Consider also, that God had commanded the disobedient killed by the Jews, even if the disobedient were their own brothers. As the enemies of God were killed, and even their own children, whether Jew or not, their teachings and disobedience spread, and must be stopped, or there would not be much of any people to be called God’s. When an enemy of God, a disobedient person who practices falseness, when they raise their children, the children are not taught about God, they usually grow up just like their parents, full of sin and all kinds of atrocities. Therefore, with that in mind, one can see why in the Old Testament, God even commanded infants be killed.
The Bible says that Satan is the prince of the air. What is air; does this not explain how we can have even bad thoughts, negative thoughts, thoughts that seem to come from nowhere, out of the air? Until we with practice learn to better control our thoughts, after Jesus saves us, we can have many bad thoughts, some we might dismiss immediately, and others we keep. An infant is, of course, subject to the air, and subject to all the negative and bad thoughts that come with it. Some turn out to be worse than others are, but still all are subject to air. I see all born in a world to which we are all sinners, for even bad thoughts, negative thoughts are sin. Jesus says sin starts from a thought.
As for God’s ultimate decision of where infants who die go, God knows everyone’s heart, even what a heart would eventually become.
The lost sheep of Israel are the Jews who did not only worship Him with lips, but the lost sheep of Israel are those Jews who relied on God. God offered salvation to the lost sheep of Israel first, people that came to Jesus during Jesus’ ministry on earth, and the rest of the Jews were hardened. After Jesus was crucified and raised to life, that is when all men then had a chance to be reconciled to God, through Jesus.

 

Moriah, that is pure superstition, almost as bad as Augustine's belief that the sin nature is passed from the parents to the newly conceived child through concupiscence or sexual desire.

Let's say your theory is true. A child is not exposed to the air or take it's first breath until it exits the womb. What state would that child be in before that?

This is all superstition, the scriptures say God has made men upright, but they have sought out many inventions (Ecc 7:29). This is a verse that directly addresses man's moral constitution or nature at conception. That men "seek" inventions shows a choice of the will to pursue evil and become depraved or "evil" later. But originally they are made upright.

 

You said: Moriah, that is pure superstition, almost as bad as Augustine's belief that the sin nature is passed from the parents to the newly conceived child through concupiscence or sexual desire.

My reply: Stop adding to what I say. Where did I say what you say here? Where do I say anything close to saying a child sin is conceived through concupiscence or sexual desire? Again, stop adding to what people say.

You said: Let's say your theory is true. A child is not exposed to the air or take it's first breath until it exits the womb. What state would that child be in before that?

My reply: Air is all around. The child even has thoughts in the womb. Even fear is sin. Fretting leads to sin, etc. We all eventually act some sins out.

You said: This is all superstition, the scriptures say God has made men upright, but they have sought out many inventions (Ecc 7:29). This is a verse that directly addresses man's moral constitution or nature at conception. That men "seek" inventions shows a choice of the will to pursue evil and become depraved or "evil" later. But originally they are made upright

My reply: You sound unstable when you falsely accuse me of superstition. What does superstition have to do with what I said? You just like to argue, even if you have to make up things for your opponent that you want to argue.
I will try to explain it to you again, Jesus says Satan is the prince of the air, see Ephesians 2:2. We all are born with the ability to sin, but not all sin the same. God had ordered disobedient Jews killed, even infants, and other enemies God has ordered killed in the Old Testament. Would you like to explain why that is?
Parents can have an effect on what their children believe in. Other people around your children have an effect on what your children grow up believing in. You are the one with the questions. Now stop adding to what I say. Let us hear your answers why God had children killed. Go ahead you explain.

 

I compared your belief that sin is transmitted through the air to Augustine's belief that it is passed through passion.

Jesus had a real human body just like ours. He received nourishment, including oxygen from his mother Mary just as we did. If your theory is true, he would have received a sin nature. I'm sorry, you may believe the sin nature is received this way, but I regard it as superstition.

Plus, it is not scriptural, as I said before, the scriptures say man is made upright and becomes depraved later when he seeks inventions, an act of the will.

 

I knew you would have no explanation. Unless you have an explanation, you should be more respectful to others. I said nothing that is not in the Bible. We are all born with an ability to think. We all have the potential to grow and act our negative thoughts out. We are all influenced by others to sin or not, by our parents, and other people. I have said NOTHING wrong.
Ephesians 1:21 far above all rule and authority, power and dominion, and every title that can be given, not only in the present age but also in the one to come.
Ephesians 6:12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.
Matthew 15:15Peter said to Him, “Explain the parable to us.” 16Jesus said, “Are you still lacking in understanding also? 17“Do you not understand that everything that goes into the mouth passes into the stomach, and is eliminated? 18“But the things that proceed out of the mouth come from the heart, and those defile the man. 19“For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders. 20“These are the things which defile the man; but to eat with unwashed hands does not defile the man.”
Genesis 6:5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.
Matthew 5:28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Galatians 5:19 The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery;
Ephesians 2:2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Matthew 13:18-19 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
1 Corinthians 6:11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
Ephesians 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath.
Ephesians 2:11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)--
Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
Ephesians 4:17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking.
Ephesians 5:8 For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light

 

I am not denying that the forces of darkness are not at work in this world, in fact that is part of the explanation for sin. Satan does not have the power to compel, only to suggest and tempt.

And notice Eph 2:2 you quoted, it says "when you followed the ways of this world". There is your answer, the world tempts, as Satan tempted Eve, and we "follow" as Eve did. It is a willful and knowing decision of the will that causes a person to sin.

We are born flesh with natural desires and lusts. These desires are not moral, they can make no decision, but they place a strong temptation on the will. A newborn child has desires, and his will easily gratifies these desires. But it takes time before a child can understand good from evil. The natural desires have a big head start on the intellect. When a child does understand right from wrong and can make a moral choice, the desires have already developed a strong influence over the will. The child will give in to the desires even though his intellect tells him it is sin. When a person does this they become sinful. The more they do this, the more depraved they become. And the stronger hold sin has on him.

This agrees with Ecc 7:29 which says we are made upright, but later seek inventions. Seeking is a willing decision to pursue these temptations, which arise when a man is enticed of his own lust. The world serves to excite these lusts, as Satan excited Eve's natural desires in the garden. The tree looked good for food, was pleasant to the eyes, and desired to make one wise. Satan simply excited these desires, Eve willingly chose to follow or obey them.