There are two Israels...

Allan,

Then, please define what "Church" means?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

"Church" is ..."Any assemble of God's people".

Christians= "Christ like". (conform to his image)

There are no "divisions" of Nationality in the "body of Christ",

the "CHURCH".

Jew/Greek or Gentile.

 

The church is the total number of Spirit-Baptized believers from Pentecost to the Rapture. In the gospels the church is still future, so that proves that there was no church in the OT. A church is not just an assembly of God's people.

 

That's probably the best definition for church I have seen.

 

Larry,

I strong DISAGREE.

Church is make up pf ALL members from beginning to end, from Adam to the very last person at Christ's coming.

I disagree. That is your opinion.

Of course I am aware that you would use Matt. 16:18 to support, "I WILL built my church" speaks of Church will begin on Pentacost Day.

My understanding of Matt. 16:18 means that Christ told disciples that he is going to built his people when He will give power(keys)to disciples to witness gospel to the world.

The Bible doesn't rule out that Adam, Abraham, Moses, David, etc. are not part of the Church.

Because Christ already made reconcile all Jews and Gentiles unity together became one by Calvary (Ephesians chapter 2), clearly that means it includes all O.T. saints join with the together.

Romans 11:25-26 teaching us clearly that Olive Tree was ALREADY right there in O.T. period. That tree is picture as Church-Jesus Christ. Also, tree is picture of Cross too. Jews were already in Olive Tree long time before Gentiles.

Jews were already commonwealth of Israel in O.T. whilst Gentiles were separated and strangers. In other word, Jews were already belong to Christ's church in O.T.

NOW, Gentiles are grafted in tree join with believing Jews, therefore, Gentiles are now part of commonwealth of Israel. Israel is same as Church. Church never replace Israel. Israel is just now expanding, same as Church is expanding.

Also, I BELIEVE that, before Christ comes to earth, O.T. saints already heard the word 'Church' in their own language Hebrew or Greek, it easily mean congregation. So, therefore, Church was already right there in O.T. but church was limited within physical nation -Israel, because the gospel was not yet spreading out over world to Gentiles till Christ brought his keys(power) to Disciples. Now, church is no more limited, it is expanding over the world because of gospel.

Church is make up of ALL saints from Adam to the very last person at Christ's coming, by through their FAITH on Jesus Christ only, no other else.

Look at example of Revelation chapter 21 of New Jerusalem is the perfect picture of the Church/Israel, what the Bible is all talking about salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Show this in the Bible. Never is anyone in the OT said to be in the church.

First, the church is the body of Christ. That can't exist until Christ has died and risen again.
Second, the church is formed by Spirit baptism (1 Cor 12:13). In the gospels that was still future (Matt 3:11; Mar 1:8; Luk 3:16). Therefore, the church can't exist until Spirit baptism which was not until Acts 2.

Wouldn't be my first argument, but it is a good one.

Yes.

Yes it does. You have not one place in the Scriptures that put these people in the church. Paul says the church was a mystery.

Not at all. Not only is that not "clear." It is not even realistic. Paul was talking about unity in the body between Jew and Gentile. He was saying nothing about the OT saints.

But again, notice that you have no Scripture that says this. Not one place does the Scripture describe anyone prior to Pentecost as being in the church. That is significant. This is a place where you have to abandon your presuppositions and look at the text.

 

You bet.

Now, before you go wrenching this out of context you must first remember that this is a passage that is dealing with the Church.

Secondly, that it is speaking of the body whom the Spirit has both baptized and is indwelling.

Thirdly, this passage is part of context refering to spiritual gifts which are and have only been given to those of the Church (Spirit baptized and indwelt believers). The Spirit distributes His gifts to believers as He chooses.

Spirit baptism is defined in 1 Corinthians 12:13 as that work of God whereby believers are baptized (immersed, placed) into Christ’s body, the church.

How then does a believer become a member of the body of Christ? It is by the Spirit's baptism. If we can determine when Spirit baptism first began, then we will know when the church began. When did God first baptize believers into His body? When were believers first placed into the body of Christ? To answer this is to determine the day on which the church began.

Another thing to consider is the Acts passages 1:5 and 11:15-16:

According to our Christ's prediction the Spirit baptism had not taken place yet though it would soon take place. No one yet had been immersed into the body of Christ. Thus, the church could not have begun prior to Acts 1:5. When Jesus spoke the words of Acts 1:5 His death and His resurrection had already taken place but the Spirit baptism had not taken place as of yet, and so the church had not yet been formed. However the announcement of Acts1:5 is very significant because Jesus said that Spirit baptism would take place "not many days hence". And we know that this event happened just 10 days later on the day of Pentecost.

Pentecost and the unique events that took place on that day are described in Acts chapter 2. Though in this chapter Spirit baptism is not specifically mentioned. It is not until Acts 11 that we are specifically told that Spirit baptism took place on the day of Pentecost:

Based on the clear statement of this passage we know that Spirit baptism first took place on the the Day of Pentecost. It was then that believers were first placed into the body of Christ. Without question it was then we find the church beginning and not in the OT.

Add to that This statement by CHrist also:

And just to make sure you know I anskwered you question about if the original language show such. Look them up the passages I gave for yourself. The church is distinct from Israel. We are not Israel nor are we spiritual Israel - We are the Church both the body and bride of Christ Jesus.


However, just for fun, one could take this to show an illistration that just as there are many members which make up the same body, so to is Israel and the Church different members of the same body. The members aspect of the illistration does not mean they are two seperate unrelated bodies but to different members of the same body with different purposes or functions to fulfill. We are all of the body of faith which is Christ Jesus but we have different functions and purposes. We are distinct from each other not as entities of different bodies but in relation to means and function. (much like the hand, foot, eye). But that is just having some fun with scripture and I am not stating that is the context of this passage.

 

Yes, it has been disproven. Next question :thumbs:

 

Thanks for the Welcome, being banned is common in this falling away season, especially if the Mod is a know it all or doesn't have any spiritual discernment, just kick the dust off and go on down the road.

The House of Judah was invited to the "lambs marriage supper", but Judah refused. (Jews) (Matt 22)

The House of Joseph/Ephraim accepted the invitation. (Gentile Church)

The house of Joseph/Ephraim are raptured to the lamb's marraige supper,

The house of Judah (Jews) enter/suffer the trib as chastisment for refusing.

The "CANA" marriage is the "Two sticks/Houses" becoming one, during the MK.

You ask if there was a Spiritual/literal Israel, the answer is "YES",

Circumcision in the heart makes one a Jew, that's the "Spiritual Israel" that consist of the "gentile Church.

But God made a promise to "Abraham" that "HIS SEED", Natural descendants, would as the "stars of heaven",

And even if they are "enemies of the gospel" they are still chosen "FOR THE FATHER'S SAKE" of keeping his promise.

Ro 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

That's not to say they don't have to be "born again", they do, but that is what the tribulation period is all about.

Judah (Jews) would be the "literal Israel" while Joseph/Ephraim (church) would represent the "Spiritual Israel", because we can "SEE" the Kingdom of God,

Judah is still looking for the "literal" Kingdom, and it's coming "VERY SOON".

 

Me4Him,

That's your own theory.

"The Lost Tribes" is a completely theory. I do not agree with it. This is men making teaching in their own theory.

Nowhere in the New Testament mention 'lost tribes.'

Some use Jeremiah chapter 31 about "House of Judah" & "House of Israel" that they saying the 'new covenant' for both tribes are not yet fulfilled. They say it will be fulfill at Second Coming for Millennial Kingdom.

But, Jeremiah chapter 31 of 'new covenant' already fulfilled by through Calvary by through the blood of Christ, that he already made new covenant with Israel. I suggest that everyone should read and study book of Hebrews, it mentioned lot about covenant, blood, and sacrifice. Book of Hebrews teaching us that the blood of Christ already set new covenant. Now we are no longer under the old coveant.

Dispensationalists still believe that 'Church' and 'Israel' are still distinction in God's program of present time.

For example, this present gospel age is FOR Church only while God holds 'Israel' leaves on the shelf wait till Rapture occurs, when the Church gones, then, God takes 'Israel' off the shelf and to focus on Israel(physical Jewish nation) again for seven year of Tribulation Period. Also, when Christ comes again, They saying that God will re-etablish Israel as Jewish nation again and to set modern Jerusalem to be world's capitol during Millennial Kingdom. In their teasching that God have a very "special" plan for Jews during Millennial kingdom.

Dispensationalism doctrine is no make sense, and it is men-making doctrine.

God only have one family of all nations whosoever believing in Christ, they are now belong to God's children. God don't care what race, religion, nation, a person is. God interests in person who put faith and trust IN Jesus Christ only-salvation.

In Hebrews 11:9-10 telling us, Abraham's faith that he was looking for heavenly city which God is the maker that built the city. Clearly speak of New Jerusalem.

Bible doesn't saying that Abraham was looking for future earthly city -modern Jerusalem for coming Millennial Kingdom.

Because this present modern Jerusalem is filled of sins and that city will be destroy at Christ's coming. We do not need that old earthly Jerusalem. We are eager look for New Jerusalem will be descend out of heaven, put it on new earth, and we shall dwell in it for eternality follow at Christ's coming in Revelation chapter 21.

Right now, we are spiritual Israel, because we as Gentiles are already graft in Olive Tree join with believing Jews that why we are part of Israel -Romans 11:26. God only have one family, and also, He only have ONE WIFE, not two wives.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Yes, I already did, and Allan repeated it.

 

Larry,

J.D. asked you, to find the support or proof from the BIBLE in original language according as what you mentioned on 'Church' definition that you saying the 'Church; was not yet exist in the O.T. period, and it was born during Pentacost Day till Rapture. So, you seem not yet use verse to prove your comment on Church. Your comment is obivious theory as opinion to me. I am not interest in your theory or opinion, I am interest truth with verses that you have to prove it about the Church.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I gave it to you. I don't know how much original language you want or can understand (since I don't know what your level of knowledge of Greek is). If you would like me to say it all in Greek and Hebrew, I can do that, but that will take some time to translate my thoughts. I gave verses and showed the argumentation already. There is nothing hidden in the original languages. The versions all agree on this.

Take some time and review it and then get back to me.

 

But simply comparing words won't work. What is behind the particular use of a word? that is what is important. The NT defines the church (ekklesia) as the body of Christ and the way into the body is Spirit baptism (1 Cor 12:13). There was no such Spirit baptism in the OT, and therefore, whatever the "ekklesia" was, it wasn't the church.

It doesn't. There were many assemblies in the OT. But the fact that there are two assemblies doesn't mean that they are the same assembly.

But it is distinguished in more ways. First, the OT assembly did include believing Gentiles (such as Rahab). But then you the issues of the body of Christ, the mystery, Spirit baptism, etc, all of which distinguish the NT church from OT Israel.

It think it's the opposite. It is the failure of covenantalists to recognize discontinuity.

I agree with all of this.

Those are not two Israels. They are the same Israel. For all your talk of continuity, you are creating a discontinuity. The OT/NT treats Israel whether from the Exodus or the Exile or the restored kingdom as one entity. And that is the point of dispensationalism.