There are two Israels...

Rapture isn't mentioned either, so do we toss that out as well???

How can there be two houses in the "body of Christ", clearly there can't be,

a "Covenant" requires at least "TWO" to be in agreement with the terms of the covenant, the "House Of Judah" hasn't accepted the terms of the "New covenant", so there is no new covenant between them and God/Jesus.

No Gentiles can be an "enemies of the Gospel" and ever have any hope of being saved, but because of God promise, Judah does, one reason for the Tribulation period, Daniel's final week.

Ro 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew?
:2 Much every way:

When they brought the woman caught in adultery to Jesus, "WHY" didn't Jesus keep the "law of Moses" and order her stoned to death???

Jesus didn't "keep the law", as given to Moses, did Jesus the violate the law???

Lu 16:16 The law and the prophets were until John:
Lu 16:16 The law was until John:

We're under a "GRACE PERIOD" in which the law isn't "enforced" to the letter, Jesus didn't come to condemn or Judge, like the woman, everyone can have a "Second chance".

The rapture of the church ends this "GRACE PERIOD", Israel goes back under the "LAW" (and prophets, Moses/Elijah),

during the trib if you want to be saved you'll have to be willing to "LITERALLY" crucify the "OLD MAN" to destroy the "BODY OF SIN",

Satan will have authority to kill the "body of sin" of all who have the testimony of Christ, except a remnant.

Under GRACE, we "Spiritually" crucify the old man, under the law, it's a "Literal death" for sin.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Doctrines of Law/Grace can't function at the same time, in the same time frame, the "MAIN REASON" for a "PRE TRIB RAPTURE".

Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, (Jews) my brethren, bear olive berries? (Christians) either a vine, (Jesus) figs? so can no fountain (God) both yield salt water (Doctrine) and fresh. (at the same time)

De 32:2 My doctrine shall drop as the rain,

The Bible doesn't make sense to a lot of people, and the reason is they don't understand it.

Maybe you can explain why God only chose Israel in the OT instead of the whole world???

Jerusalem is an "Eternal city", for this earth and the New earth, When Satan is loose after the 1000 years, it's "Jerusalem" he attacks.

Re 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

"Judah" was married to God, he gave them a bill of divorcement, under the law they can't be married to another unless the "Husband dies", but God being the Husband obviously isn't going to die.

So what if the "WIFE" dies, she can then be married to another without violating the law.

Ro 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

When the Old man is crucified you become a "NEW CREATURE", "BORN AGAIN", now you're free to marry another.

Jesus as the "SON" of God can't have his "FATHER'S WIFE". (Jesus's MOTHER/Judah)

1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Judah refused the invitation to the "Son's marriage supper", by rejecting Jesus, and still as the "MOTHER" of Jesus rather than the "BRIDE OF CHRIST", they're not raptured but they are turned over to satan for the destruction of the "body of sin". (trib)

Mt 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Re 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Those who are saved during the Trib will be at the "CANA MARRIAGE CELEBRATION", when both "HOUSES" (stick of Judah/Joseph=Ephraim) will become "ONE".

But until then they are "Separate".


Anybody can read what is occurring in scripture, but understanding "WHY" it occurs is necessary before you'll understand it.

 

I guess if this is all the distinction that is being made, then there are "assemblies" all over the place. I am not sure how that is helpful though. Dispensationalism doesn't disagree that there is a group of God's people in the OT.

But I think this drastically changes the NT description of the church. Again, if all you are saying is that there was an assembly of God's people in the OT and an assembly of God's people in the NT, you have no argument. But let's take it a step further. In the OT one was apart of the assembly through outward shows, not necessarily inward. In the NT church, one is a part only by inward change. That is another evidence that there is a substantial and irreconcilable difference.

I don't think it refines it at all. I think it says the same thing the OT says about it. As for viewing Israel through a NT lens, again, I have to disagree. The idea that we don't know who Israel is apart from the NT means that the OT would have had no real meaning without the NT. I have to reject that for a variety of reasons, which I don't have time or space to go into here. But suffice it to say that I think it calls into question the perspecuity of the Scriptures.

What are you writing on?

 

Complete for what though? I think it was complete for some things.

If we say that the OT has no meaning apart from the NT (which I know you didn't say, but I think it leads that direction), then we say that the OT is not clear without the NT. I think that is dangerous.

Good topic with some interesting material. I am a presuppositionalist, so I reject the value of most of the traditional arguments. Tim Keller's "The Reason for God" has some interesting material.

Hope it goes well.

 

Where did you get the above nonsense, particularly that the house of Joseph/Ephraim is the Gentile Church.

Galatians 3:16. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Galatians 3:29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

This passage clearly teaches that the Church, "the true believers", constitute Abraham's seed.

Nonsense! Joseph/Ephraim are not Gentiles. That sounds like some nonsense from the Worldwide Church of God.

 

It typically relates or comes from what is known as hyper-Dipsy.

I'm not saying he is a hyper but that ideology is bound up in some forms of hyper-dispensationalism.

 

That's pretty dipsy alright! :laugh:



Sorry, couldn't resist. :saint:

 

I'm not familar with the hyper dispen doctrine/ideology, but hyper or not,

The fact is that there are only two separate groups of people at the present who will become "ONE", that is the Church and Israel.

Eze 37:19 Say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel his fellows, and will put them with him, even with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they shall be one in mine hand.

 

Jesus said "ye must be born again", yet Israel (house of Judah) are "enemies of the Gospel" but still "elect".

There's one group who believe the Gospel and are "born again", but another group who doesn't believe and are, in fact, enemies of the gospel, "UNBORN", yet they are still "considered" as "Elect".

Can you explain this?????

P.S. the promise to Abraham and "his seed" is both for Jesus and Abraham's natural seed.

Southern Baptist, very "Southern", and very "fundamental", even the "old path".

 

You made two correct statements:
1]Jesus said "ye must be born again" and
2]There's one group who believe the Gospel and are "born again".

You did not answer my question: Where did you get the above nonsense, particularly that the house of Joseph/Ephraim is the Gentile Church?

Also your statement: "the promise to Abraham and "his seed" is both for Jesus and Abraham's natural seed" does not comport with the Scripture I quoted:

Galatians 3:29. And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

 

The stick of Joseph in the hand of Ephraim is the northern kingdom. Ephraim is one of hte names for the NK.

 

You're coming up "Seriously short" in understanding "Prefigures" and "Foreshadows".

We have the "House of Joseph/Ephriam" (Samaritans) who accepted Jesus and are "Born again",

and we have the "House of Judah" (jews) who rejected Jesus and are not "born again", even enemies of the Gospel and of Jesus, yet scripture says they are still "ELECT".

Joseph/Ephraim was circumcised in the heart by the spirit to become Jews,

Judah was circumcised in the "FLESH" by a knife.

How do you explain both groups being "ELECT" after what Jesus said,

Ye must be born by the spirit.

 

You left out types and anti types but you still did not answer my question.

Samaritans were not the "House of Joseph/Ephriam". They were a mixture of Israelites and pagans brought in by the Assyrians.

You are assuming that all the so called "House of Joseph/Ephriam" (Samaritans) were converted. Nonsense!

You say "we have the "House of Judah" (jews) who rejected Jesus". May I remind you that all the Apostles were Jews These constituted the beginning of the Church in its new testament form.

Also may I remind you that the Galatians were Gentiles and the apostle paul states that: And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. [Galatians 3:29.]