Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

You said their persecuters were Jews. The comfort they would receive was to see these people removed as persecutors. This was accomplished in 70 AD.

Problem is, the Jews gone, new persecuters soon rose up.

 

Consider the passage at hand. He says, "to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels..."

They were to rest. What if some of them lived until the later Roman persecution? I guess Paul's promise of rest was to be revoked and another period of persecution and tribulation begin.

Furthermore, the event that would bring rest is the revealing of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus wasn't revealed from heaven in 70 AD. The Jews today still don't get why the temple and city was destroyed and they were punished. They don't get that these things came from their rejection of Jesus and His messengers. Neither the Jews then present, nor the Romans, nor Titus, nor Josephus saw or understood that Jesus Christ was pouring judgement on the Jews. Much less did they see His angels attend Him.

This judgement was to be everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, not temporal death, the temporal destruction of the city, and imprisonment and slavery. Also, this event was to be when the Lord was come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.

Basically what you are saying is all this was accomplished in 70 AD. I cannot see how you can fulfill all of that in 70 AD.

 

But Tom, how do you know what Nathanael saw since it is not recorded. Just because we have no record of an event doesn't mean it didn't happen and just what is a the "spiritual" meaning anyway of what Jesus promised them (the word see [optomai] is 2nd person plural)?

We have a record of at least one angel appearing to Jesus in a very real way...

Luke 22:43 And there appeared (optomai) an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.​

So at least Luke witnessed this event, or it was recounted to him.

In addition we do have records of angels appearing to do some very earthy things (like wearing clothes, sitting, speaking):

John 20

11 But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept, she stooped down, and looked into the sepulchre,
12 And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.
13 And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.​

Tom, it really seems to me that full preterism has a handy tool called "allegorization" or "spiritualization" to apply whenever things start falling apart with the interpretation.

I fully understand that allegory, imagery, etc are varifiable tools used in the Scripture, however it does seem a really big stretch (IMO) to allegorize the coming of the Roman armies and the destruction of the Temple in AD70 as the Second Coming of Christ especially in light of the fact that some other seemingly very literal events are foretold in Scripture:

e.g.

2 Peter 3

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

Where is this new earth wherein dwells righteousness?

Begging your pardon my brother, but full preterism seems more to me to be on a plane with the doctrine of "Transubstantiation" where we are asked to lay reason and logic aside and accept the unreasonabe and less than logical.

True, God has asked us in the past to do just that but IMO full preterism has too many loose ends to snip and too many convoluted knots to untie.

Partial preterism has far fewer problems.

HankD

 

Honestly: I see and understand you method of interpretation, however I am not conviced any more now than ever.​

Let me know when you are ready to deal with the question concerning this material universe and its "end".

In the mean time, my expectation from FP is that this material universe is a) eternal in the direction of the future or b) will die the death of entropy at some undisclosed time or c) It is not worthy of discussion.

Obviously, if all Scripture is fulfilled (and therefore, presumably, a closed book in terms of future events), then it would have nothing to say about this event unless you (generic "you") can point to one passage dealing with the "end" of the material universe since it seems not to be 2 Peter 3.

BTW, a thought crossed my mind. Since FP believes that the Second Coming has already happened, do you participate in communion services?

1 Corinthians 11:26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.​

Thanks again​

HankD

 

I have been reading your explanation of 1 Thessalonians 1:7 and find it completely bankrupt of textual support. The term "when" cannot be divorced from what can only be regarded as a visible expectaton of the second coming of Christ from heaven with "eternal" consequences not temporal consequences.

To apply the term "rest" regardless how you interpret it to A.D. 70 is disputed by the very nature of events that are confined to that "when" event. There is a second "when" in verse 10 that is contemporanous and that is our glorification as saints - neither "when" can be applied, restricted or interpreted to A.D. 70 without doing serious harm to the text. Notice that both "when" (vv. 7,10) are restricted to "IN that day" (v. 10b).

I do not know how anyone can deny that the common Christian living at that point in time did not look forward to "rest" from all tribulation which could occur only "WHEN" he Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Trying to apply this text to A.D. 70 is unnatural and forced beyond all imagination.

 

I have been reading this thread with interest. HankD, I love this point - quoted above - as well as the very strong point you have made about the end of the world. I am planning to start a new thread soon to once again point out the extremely strong tie-in between the death of death and the return of Christ. All of these are very strong examples why Preterism does not stand up to scriptural analysis. We openly examine it - and find it wanting - it is not that we are "blinded" or "obstinate" - necessarily!

 

I see nothing in this passage, were I alive in Thessalonica back in the day, that would make me; 1) believe that there had to be physical "relief," "rest," etc., shortly on the way; 2) feel "wronged" by God for allowing me to continue to endure the persecution of the day. But what I would have been is: 1) encouraged by knowing that it was righteous and even normal to be persecuted as my Lord had been, and that God recognized this fact. 2) that God also recognized whom was doing the persecuting and that they would get theirs - one day. This same principle is taught in many other places throughout scripture - nothing different to be found here.

Christians have been persecuted through the centuries since 70 AD - so where is the "rest" for all of them/us - if the Lord has come? Do you seriously think that ONLY these Thessalonians of that day were to be given "rest" at Christ's return?

Who is the "us" as in "rest with us" from v. 7? If Paul wrote it - did it not include Paul? Was Paul even "alive" in 70 AD; did he receive his rest then? If Paul understood it to mean very short term rest/relief from physical persecution, synonymous with the return of Christ during his lifetime - contemporary with the then living Thessalonians - he rather missed the boat didn't he?

Also, God really had to have vengeance on dem bad ole Jews of that day for 'knowing not God' and 'disobeying the Gospel' (v. 8) - in flaming fire no less - but all the other persecutors thru history since 70 AD - not so much?

Christ came and was 'glorified in His saints' and 'admired by all them that believe' (v. 10) - except there is really no definitive historical record of it. It was apparently soon forgotten by His "glorifying" and "admiring" followers as well - because they too left no record of it for us today, and most of us don't believe it ever happened.

I must say, this seminal event, this epochal moment, this one, single, much prophesied of, and much ballyhooed return of Christ didn't leave much of an impression at all - did it? This is to say nothing of the unfulfilled portions of scripture/prophecy yet remaining.

Just a few observations.

 

This was the very point I made in an earlier post that was completely ignored by asterisktom.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Tom's argument is that God must avenge the Thessalonians within their lifetime. But in Revelations it shows believers who have been slain for Jesus's sake who are still awaiting revenge. Jesus gives them a white robe and they are told to rest yet a little "season" until their fellowservants and brethren should be killed as they were.

Now, I may be wrong about this, but I think the word season is noteworthy. Season of course means a period of time, but most recognize there are four seasons. In Acts Peter told the Jews that the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of "restitution of all things". So, we must understand what these "times" mean, and what the "restitution of all things" mean before we can know when Jesus will come.

But before this, Jesus had also spoken of times or seasons in Acts 1.

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

It was after this that Peter spoke of "times" plural before Jesus would come.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Now, I don't know how any Preterist could ignore these statements by both Jesus and Peter in Acts. Jesus said it was not for the apostles to know the times or seasons that the Father had put in his own power. This was in direct response to them asking when Jesus would restore the kingdom.

And then in Acts 3 Peter says the heaven must receive Jesus until the "times" of restitution.

How can any Preterist not be interested in finding out exactly what these times and seasons mean in scripture and if they fit their belief that Jesus came in 70 A.D.?

 

Thanks Eagle. Correct about the being "blinded" and/or "obstinate" necessarily! part.

I don't like leaving any stone unturned in the examination of any new or developing doctrine within the church venue.

I need it settled in my own mind so that I can have an answer to those with whom I have to do (such as my Sunday School Class I have been priviledged to guide).

So far, Tom has made some good observations but there are so many inconsistencies and difficulties (like those mentioned above), I just can't consider full preterism as a possibilty (IMO).

And really, I don't begrudge him his view. I am convinced of his sincerity and concern for the well being of the church(es).

HankD (trying to be fair)

 

You're right on Winman!

 

The preterist says that the supposed coming of Christ in 70 AD doesn't require a physical, universal seeing of Jesus. The problem is, the bible in very clear language says that the second coming of Jesus would be a physical event witnessed by all, even they who pierced Him. "As the lightening cometh out of the east, and shinest even unto the west; so shall the coming of hte Son of man be." Jesus had just gotten through telling His disciples about 70 AD and then makes this statement to not believe men who said the Son of man had come and was in the desert or in the secret chambers. Don't believe it, says Jesus, for here is what my second coming will be like. The lightening hits over there, but shines to way over there. Jesus will not return in secret, it will not be an event that goes unnoticed by millions. That is what is asked of us in order to believe your view of 70 AD. Every eye will see Him.

 

The futurist view of Rev 1:7: So Many Problems so Little Faith so Much Denial

The futurist’s view of Rev. 1:7 divorces it from its Old Testament roots of what coming with the clouds has always meant and always been understood to mean by the first century audience. With all the many cloud manifestations of God in the Old Testament not once was God ever actually seen—they represented his presence. As in Isaiah 19:1 when he rode a swift cloud against Egypt. Every one saw God here coming in judgment against Egypt thru the Assyrians just as everyone saw Christ coming in judgment in 70AD thru Rome against Jerusalem.

In the futurist view Christ can’t tell time. In verse 3 John says the time of Christ’s coming is near. Near doesn’t mean far off as in thousands of years that would make a mockery of the divinely inspired writing of the Holy Bible. Seven times Revelation states that his coming is near. Never does it say far off, long time, any other such delay in his coming.

In Matthew Jesus himself assures Caiaphas that he will see his return. Is Caiaphas still alive today still waiting to see his return? Are those who pierced Jesus still alive today still waiting for his return? The futurist is forced to believe they are still alive and waiting or conveniently ignore these passages or torture the meaning beyond all recognition to wiggle out of the simple and straight forward meaning of these verses.

The futurists demands the physically impossible from verse 7. If every eye is going to see Jesus in human form show up in the clouds (let’s assume Jesus is about 6 ft tall) it would be impossible to see such a 6 ft. figure very high up. Not to mention the problem people on the other side of the planet would have seeing him. It’s beyond absurd even laughable. Jesus must slap his knee with a jolly big laugh when he hears people claiming this.

I could go on with the many problems the futurist view runs into with Rev 1:7, but will stop just by lamenting on how sad it is that the futurist view robs Christ of his magnificence, glory and supreme authority over all creation. The Old Testament association of God with the clouds is imbued with his omnipotent authority and power and rule over all creation. He is the supreme ruler of the heavens and the universe and affairs of man and all His creation. When Jesus (Mark 13:26) states he is coming with power and glory on the clouds he is associating himself with the divine authority of God and God’s singular authority to judge, to punish, and to deliver retribution upon Jerusalem. Instead of seeing the promised work of Christ in the destruction of Jerusalem the futurist reduces it to the work of man thus stripping Christ of his authority, his fulfillment of prophecy, and His sovereignty over the affairs of man. The futurist view is nothing less than a denial of who Christ is and repudiating the divine inspired writing of the Holy Bible thru the Holy Spirit.

 

Lastday

Logos1:
Into our most essential doctrine you attempt to mix 3 conjectures that limit Christ's Authority! You accuse Futurists of “robbing Christ of His Authority” at His Coming and Presence!! His Coming in Kingdom Power must precede His Coming in Power and Glory by 1263 or 1264 Days!!!

You seem to support Christ's Authority; but curb that Authority with your theoretical human reasoning:
Essense of your quotes are abridged here:

Your Reasoning makes 3 serious and unsubstantiated accusations:

ONE: Does the Futurist say "Christ can’t tell time" because, as you claim, Rev.1:3 says “Christ’s coming is near”? Or is there another explanation?

TWO:

THREE:

[End of three speculative "Reasons"].

In our recent discussion of “You will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes”, Winman placed a restriction upon the knowledge of Jesus that either sees Him “mistaken” about the possibility of His coming in Kingdom Power for 1260 Days PRIOR to His Coming and Presence in the clouds of heaven OR that He deliberately “deceived” the Disciples into believing a “false” rumor rather than in the possibility that John might not die until he returns from heaven to demonstrate “God's Kingdom Power and Christ's own Authority” BEFORE He appears through the clouds in Person and in Power and in Glory and Before He gathers the Saints from the earth. But I suggest you go too far in having curbed His Authority!

ONE: Was Jesus unable to “tell time” according to the Futurist or according to YOUR reasoning?
RESPONSE:
In the very first word of the Greek text of Matt.16:27, the word “mello”, present tense, is used by Jesus when He refers to His future coming in glory with the angels to reward every believer as being “about to occur”.

You insert about 40 years between verse 27 and verse 28. Between 40 to 60 years later Jesus informed John in Rev.12:5 that when “He (the child of the woman) was caught up to heaven, He was ABOUT (mello) to shepherd all nations with an iron staff”. Again, you insert at least 40 years between verse 5 and 6. Our question concerns the length of time God means for “nearness”.

ANSWER: “Nearness” to God regarding 2000 years is no more than like 2 days in human reasoning! To God the fulfillment of all of Rev.6 to Rev.19 was “near” as of the First Century when John wrote!! All men will see Christ coming in the clouds to execute wrath at His Presence in Power and Glory!!!

TWO: Does Jesus not have the Power to flash the image of His Presence Instantly and Globally?
ANSWER:
It is the Presence (Parousia); not the Coming (erchomai) that occurs instantly, “like lightning”! The Sign of Christ's Presence will be like lightning; but “then men who see Him will mourn”!! His Presence, like lightning, occurs before the tribes “mourn and then He gathers the Elect from the earth"!!!

THREE: Will Caiaphas and others who “pierced Jesus see Him coming (erchomai)” after He appears?
ANSWER:
Caiaphas may have become a Believer before he died. He would see Jesus and appear with Him at His Parousia! While the tribes of earth “mourn”, they may “see Christ coming with all the Saints” including Caiaphas!! The text can be translated so that “those who see Jesus coming also see millions who pierced Him coming with Him”!!!
Mel Miller