They do not deserve a *State*

There is a terrific book that is still in print, called "Things that Differ" by Cornelius Stam. I would almost guarantee you would change some of the views you now have if you read it prayerfully. All your spiritualizing would vanish over time, and you would have a clear view of Gods Word. God certainly didn't intend for us to be divided on His word, but he also didn't want us to ignore it either.

Thank you Ken for the Darby info, as I'd never heard of him.

 

Hillclimber,

I would recommend to you two books:

"Beyond the End Times" by John Noe

and

"Revelation: Four Views" by Steve Gregg

I will not guarantee that you will change your view, but I guarnatee that you will at least get a broader view of what people believe and why they believe it.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Actually views of the Millenium have never been viewed as a barrier to Christian fellowship.

Most of the early Baptists were all Postmill and that is true of most Southern Baptists in the early years. Only in the last 100 years has Premill become dominant among Baptists.

I consider myself a mixture of Amill, Postmill. </font>[/QUOTE]Kiffen, could you kindly explain the terms postmill and amill. I honestly don't know what they refer to/mean. Is it our current position in Gods timeline? Is it the time for the rapture of the church? Or do you believe in the rapture?

 

I've heard of Noe, and will look into both books. Thank you Joeseph.

 

Hi Hillclimber.

The Amill view basically rejects the idea of any literal Millenium. 1,000 years is seen as figurative language to describe the entire Christian era. Christ is now reigning on David's throne in Heaven and will gather the saints in the air and end Satan's rebellion at his Second Coming.

The Postmill view believes the gradual progress of the spread of the Gospel will usher in a 1,000 years of Spiritual revival on the earth and of the conversion of most of humanity. They would agree with Amills that Christ is now reigning on David's throne in Heaven. Many Postmills however have some agreement with Premills about a future conversion of Israel. Near the end AntiChrist will rise resulting in a rebellion and Christ will come gather the saints in the air and end Satan's rebellion at his Second Coming snd the eternal ages begin.

Now, this is probably not the best explanation of this and Amills and Postmills are diverse much like Premills.

 

Perhaps someone will find this information useful. I have typed up these recaps of Revelation and Millennial interpretations from the Holman New Testament Commentary Series on the book of Revelation written by Kendell H. Easley, Professor of New Testament at Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary in Memphis, Tennessee, pp.4-7.

Four Schools of Interpretation:

The Preterist School: Everything in the book has already been fulfilled.
The Historical School: The predictions cover the entire period between John's day and the return of Christ.
The Futurist School: The predictions are all in the future.
The Symbolic School: The events are symbolic of the ongoing conflict between God and evil; neither historical nor future events are specifically portrayed.

Millennial Views:

Amillennialism

This evil age includes ongoing persecution for Christians, becoming more intense before Christ's return (the Tribulation). The souls of believers go to heaven at death and reign with Christ in heaven (the Millennium) as they wait with him for the Second Coming. (Others see the present church age including the spiritual condition of believers in this world as the Millennium. Still others see the new heavens and new earth as the Millennium.) When he returns gloriously and bodily to earth, Christians still living on earth will be raptured; those already dead will be resurrected. Next will be the last judgment, all people will go to either heaven or hell. The eternal state will then go on forever.

Strengths:
Held to by nearly all Christians form the 400s to the 1500s and by many today;
Simplest view;
Unites the Testaments, with Old Testament Israel and Christians seen as one group.

Weaknesses:
Rejects chronological and literal nature of the Millennium;
May appear to reject the notion of Christ's imminent return;
Can be emotionally and psychologically difficult to believe that Christians will go through any final period of tribulation.

Postmillennialism

Tribulation equals terrible events of Jewish war of A.D. 66-70;
Gospel and Christian missions will become so powerful that most of human society will be brought voluntarily into Christ's kingdom;
Earth will have long golden age of peace (the Millennium);
After Millennium Christ will return visibly to earth, welcomed by all;
Last judgment will mean all people go to either heaven or hell;
Eternal state will go on forever.

Strengths:
Held by many-even most-North American Bible-believing Christians during the 1800s;
Has most optimistic view of the success of Christian missions;
Emotionally and psychologically very powerful and comforting.

Weakness:
World Wars I and II caused most Christians to abandon idea that the world is getting better and most of the world's people will become Christians, but recent rapid spread of Christianity in many parts of the Third World has brought a significant resurgence of postmillennialism.

Historic Premillennialism

This evil age will get worse and worse, ending with a final terrible persecution of Christians by Antichrist(tribulation);
Many Christians will become martyrs;
Christ will come to pour out God's wrath and to bring victory for Christians; He will judge the Antichrist and establish a golden age in which Christians will be priests and kings on the earth for a thousand years (Millennium);
One last terrible war will precede the last judgment (though some historic premillennialists do not believe in a literal interpretation of Armageddon);
God will establish a new heaven and a new earth;
Eternal state will go on forever.

Strengths:
Held to strongly during the first four Christian centuries and by many today;
Takes Revelation 20 (and the entire book) literally;
Sees final culmination of Christ's kingdom as fulfilled by Christians.

Weaknesses:
A complicated view, not clearly presented in a single passage of Scripture;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ.

Dispensational Premillennialism

Divides history into either seven or three dispensations with different revelation from God and different responsibilities of humanity;
Before this age reaches its most wicked point, Christians (or most Christians) will be removed from earth by the Rapture;
During seven-year Great Tribulation, God will deal primarily with the Israelite nation;
Antichrist will persecute the Jewish people, but many will turn to Christ; God's wrath will be poured out, and raptured Christians will return with Christ to the earth;
Christ will reestablish Israel as a glorified righteous nation and rule the world as the King of Israel, literally fulfilling Old Testament prophecies;
One last terrible war precedes the last judgment;
A new heaven and a new earth will introduce the eternal state forever.

Strengths:
Extremely popular in the United States since World War I;
Most literal approach to the fulfillment of the Old Testament prophecies about Israel;
Most attractive view emotionally and psychologically.

Weaknesses:
By far most complicated view of prophecy;
Not able to explain why a thousand years of peace will result in a last war against Christ;
Most recent of the views (unknown before J.N. Darby in the early 1800s).

 

Coming to Christ Jesus in repentance and faith.

 

I did.

 

Wow! One fella from the 1700s. That really makes the case for the false teaching of dispensationalism not being a Johnny-come-lately to eschatology, LadyEagle.

 

Yep, he sure did. Go back and look a little closer.

Joseph Botwinick

 

So what? The number of Catholics dwarf the number of Baptists.

Numbers mean nothing when it comes to deciding if a doctrine is false, such as dispensationalism.

 

Other Baptists can join in here, as it is for all "Christians". Plus, this really is more of a political discussion anyway...you know, whether or not the Palestinians deserves a state?

Joseph Botwinick

 

If you read what I wrote you would have read this - "I have typed up these recaps...".

 

Good point, Joseph. Unfortunately, LadyEagle inserted her false dispensational eschatology into this thread by posting - "I remain optimistic that within the next 20 years, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah will be ruling and reigning from the City of David."

 

okie doke.

Joseph Botwinick

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since partial preterism is not strictly defined, isn't it an error to assume that partial preterists do not believe in an earthly millennial reign?

I see no problem in believing in the partial fullfilment of biblical prophecy while also holding a premillennialist view.