This Do, and Thou Shalt Live

Let us look at the verse again:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

So you are saying that the word "men" refers to all human beings and that incldes infants. You say that to try to prove that Paul is not speaking about anyone individually sinning at Romans 5:12.

However, verse 14 speaks of individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

Are you saying that the following verse means that "all" have sinned in Adam? According to your reasoning Paul cannot be speaking of individual sins because thetre were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

 

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

Of course a person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

So the following verse is speaking about men committing "individual" sins:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Death passed upon all men because all have sinned and as a result they become "sinners." You would have us believe that men become "sinners" without ever committing an individual sin!

When Paul preached to the people he "reasoned with them out of the Scriptures":

"And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures" (Acts 17:2).

In order to believe your ideas we must throw our reason to the wind!

 

Of course in order to assert that you have to ADD WORDS to what he said in the following manner:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods. Let us look at the unedited version of Pauls words:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

Of course the following verse in the context proves that the subject is indeed individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

"those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam."

There is no doubt that this is speaking of people sinning individually because their sins are expressly contrasted to Adam's sin. And your answer does not address that fact:

Yes, Paul is speaking of their individual sins as being fact and he makes it plain that the sins of which he is speaking is NOT Adam's sin.

The following verse also indicates that Paul is speaking of those who had individually sinned:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

A person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

To this you said:

First of all, if that is the meaning which Paul was attempting to place on his words at Romans 5:12 then why didn't he say that? If you are right he would have said, "We all sinned in Adam because we were all in his loins when he sinned." But of course Paul said no such thing.

Secondly, according to your idea Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam despite the evidence to the contrary:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

According to your reasoning and interpretation of Romans 5:12 Paul cannot possibly be speaking of individual sins in the following verse because at the time when Paul wrote those words there were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Is this verse speaking of people committing individual sins or not?

Thanks!

 

The fact of the matter is that man does something in order to be "in Christ" or to be indentified with Him, and that is to believe the gospel. The same principle applies to being "in Adam." A person is not identified with Adam until he sins.

First of all, if that is the meaning which Paul was attempting to place on his words at Romans 5:12 then why didn't he say that? If you are right he would have said, "We all sinned in Adam because we were all in his loins when he sinned." But of course Paul said no such thing.

Secondly, according to your idea Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam despite the evidence to the contrary:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).

To make your theology fit what Paul said you are forced to add words to what he said (in bold):

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Anyone can make the Bible say anything which they want it to say by using your methods. Let us look at the unedited version of Pauls words:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Here Paul is saying that death passed upon all men because all have sinned. But since that proves you wrong you say:

Of course the following verse in the context proves that the subject is indeed individual sins:

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come" (Ro.5:14).

"those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam."

There is no doubt that this is speaking of people sinning individually because their sins are expressly contrasted to Adam's sin. The following verse also indicates that Paul is speaking of those who had individually sinned:

"For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" (Ro.5:19).

A person cannot be a "sinner" until he commits an individual sin just like a man cannot become a "killer" until he kills someone and he cannot become a "robber" until he robs someone.

According to your reasoning and interpretation of Romans 5:12 Paul cannot possibly be speaking of individual sins in the following verse because at the time when Paul wrote those words there were infants who had not yet sinned:

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God" (Ro.3:23).

Is this verse speaking of people committing individual sins or not?

Thanks!

 

So a person just wakes up one morning and all of a sudden he is saved? The Lord Jesus' disciples did not share your opinion because when they were asked what a person must do to be saved, they answered:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

Either you are not aware of these verses or you know more about this that did those who actually learned these things from the Lord Jesus. Here is what He said:

" Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life" (Jn.5:24).

 

Here are your own words from another thread:

I say that no one can be "in Christ" unless they are saved. Are you willing to argue that there are unsaved people "in Christ"?

Yes, but no one is chosen "in Him" before he believes. Here Paul tells us exactly how God choses men for salvation from the beginning:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).

God choses for salvation those who believe, and this is done according to His foreknowledge. Here is another verse that teaches that truth:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Pet.1:2).

One of the meanings of the Greek word translated "according" at 1 Peter 1:2 is "in consequence of" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So the saved are described as "elect" and their election is "in consequence of" God's foreknowledge.

 

Sadly, you interpretation depends on adding words to what Paul said here:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned" (Ro.5:12).

Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method.

 

No, I have never strayed away from that.

What I do not do is add words to what Paul said in order to make what he said fit my ideas. Spiritual death comes as a result of a person's own sin. But since that doesn't fit your mistaken view you simply add the following words in bold:

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).

Of course anyone can make the Bible say anything using that method. Here is another example where it is made plain that death results from one's own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:13-15).

A person does not become dead in Adam's sin but instead in his own sin:

"And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses" (Col.2:13).

If a person is born dead in Adam and Eve's sins then it is obvious that he cannot become dead as a result of his own sins. That is because a person must first be alive spiritually before he can die spiritually.

Of course you say that because that is the teaching of Calvinism:

"They (Adam & Eve) being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation" [emphasis added] (The Westminster Confession of Faith,(VI/3).

If that is right then there can be no doubt that Abel bore the iniquity of his father Adam. However, the Scriptures make it plain that the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father:

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son" (Ezek.18:20).