"This generation"

Although there can be no reasonable doubt that dispensationalism at the very best borders on insanity, I believe that your wording here is too strong.

 

No. That is extremely farfetched.


</font>[/QUOTE]Why?

 

Warren would've followed Hymenaeus in Paul's day.

2 Tim 2:16-18 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

 

No. That is extremely farfetched.


</font>[/QUOTE]Why? </font>[/QUOTE]Matt. 16:28. "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom."
Matt. 17:1. Six days later Jesus *took with Him Peter and James and John his brother, and *led them up on a high mountain by themselves.
Matt. 17:2. And He was transfigured before them; and His face shone like the sun, and His garments became as white as light. (NASB, 1995)

Matt 17:1 immediately follows Matt. 16:28 and is a much more likely fulfillment of the prophesy because of the contextual relationship and because the prophesy speaks of “some of those” rather than “I, John.”

Matt. 16:28. Amen lego humin hoti eisin tines ton hode hestoton hoitines ou me geusontai thanatou heos an idosin ton Huion tou Anthropou erchomenon en te basileia autou.

tines, ton, hestoton, hoitines, geusontai, and idosin are all plural forms.

ego (as in I, John, saw) is a singular form.

 

Uh, no it wasn't.

But if you believe it was then you must believe John was wrong when he wrote the first 3 verses:

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God, and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, to all things that he saw. 3Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near .

So were those events shortly to take place? Was the time near? Was God deceiving those 7 churches?

Because the language in which He used to describe His coming(parousia) was OT language that was figurative/judgement language.

Find all the verses that Jesus spoke about His coming and notice how He describes it.

God did not put prophecy on hold. On what scripture do you make that statement? This is what is taught by all the Dispys, but it has no biblical support. It is only used to prop up a failed eschatological view.

Assuming we all agree that 70 comes after 69 notice Daniel:

Dan 9:26"And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end of it shall be with a flood,
And till the end of the war desolations are determined

The 62nd week is actually the 69th when you add the previous 7. Messiah is cut off after the 69th. Does that not mean that Jesus was crucified in the 70th week? There is no reason nor biblical support to stretch out Daniel's 70 weeks.

Matt. 16:28 27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels ; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

It could not be talking of John's vision, since John is the only one who saw it. This clearly states there would be several who would see this event.

It can't be speaking of the Transfiuration either.
1. Did the angels come at the Transfiguration?
2. Did God pass out judgement(27) at the Transfiguration?
3. The Transfiguration was just 6 days later. Why say "some" instead of "all" or "most"? Isn't it likely that all of those people were still alive 6 days later? However if an event 40 years later is in mind then "some" would be accurate.

Of course there are those who wish to put a 2000+ year gap between verse 27 and verse 28 in order to make it fit their view. Why not accept it as is?

Here is what most believed before Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe:

John Gill

Matthew 24:29
Immediately after the tribulation of those days… That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment,

Shall the sun be darkened:
not in a literal but in a figurative sense;
and the moon shall not give her light;
which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet,
and the stars shall fall from heaven;
which phrase, as it elsewhere intends the doctors of the church, and preachers falling off from purity of doctrine and conversation; so here it designs the Jewish Rabbins and doctors, who departed from the word of God, and set up their traditions above it, fell into vain and senseless interpretations of it, and into debates about things contained in their Talmud; the foundation of which began to be laid immediately upon their dispersion into other countries: and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken; meaning all the ordinances of the legal dispensation; which shaking, and even removing of them, were foretold by (Haggai 2:6) and explained by the author of the Epistle to the Hebrews, (Hebrews 12:26,27) whereby room and way were made for Gospel ordinances to take place, and be established; which shall not be shaken, so as to be removed, but remain till the second coming of Christ.

John Owen

"Not to hold you too long upon what is so plain and evident, you may take it for a rule, that, in the denunciations of the judgments of God, through all the prophets, heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like appearing beauties and glories of the aspectable heavens, are taken for governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Isa. 14:12-15; Jer 15:9, 51:25. Isaiah 13:13; Ps. 68:6; Joel 2:10; Rev. 8:12; Matt. 24:29; Luke 21:25; Isa 60:20; Obad. 4; Rev 8:13; 11:12; 20:11." (vol. 8, p. 255, in a sermon entitled Shaking and Translating of Heaven and Earth, preached on April 19, 1649)

John Lightfoot

(On Matthew 24:34 )
" This generation shall not pass , &c. Hence it appears plain enough, that the foregoing verses are not to be understood of the last judgment but, as we said, of the destruction of Jerusalem. There were some among the disciples (particularly John), who lived to see these things come to pass. With Matt. xvi.28, compare John xxi.22. And there were some Rabbins alive at the time when Christ spoke these things, that lived till the city was destroyed, viz. Rabban Simeon, who perished with the city, R. Jochanan Ben Zaccai, who outlived it, R. Zadoch, R. Ishmael, and others." (vol 2., p. 320).

John Wesley

On Matthew 24:34 )
" This generation of men now living shall not pass till all these things be done - The expression implies that great part of that generation would be passed away, but not the whole. Just so it was; for the city and temple were destroyed thirty-nine or forty years after."

Interesting what our Baptist forefathers and others believed before Scofield and his bible notes.

 

Warren, the idea of preterism rises and falls on the dating of Revelation. Futurists don't care when it was written.

 

I know of no Lucan scholar today of any level of competence that would even question the fact that all that has been said up to this point in this chapter has been 100% fulfilled. And with no apparent suggestion of a lapse of time in the sequence of events, Luke continues:

And again with no apparent suggestion of a lapse of time in the sequence of events, Luke continues:

(NASB, 1995)

As all students of Luke’s gospel are very much aware, there are difficulties here of gargantuan proportion and most of the scholars that I know make here a reference to the eschatological tension in which Jesus found Himself. He spoke as if His return was to be the immediate climax of these events, but that has not occurred unless one wishes to spiritualize His return. And if we do that, we are confronted with these words by Paul:

1 Cor. 15:20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.
22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all. (NASB, 1995)

We need to be very careful not to over react to the absurdities of dispensationalism and interpret the Scriptures with level of competence that is so very seriously lacking in those who mutilate the Gospel in a futile effort to make it fit the shape and size of their systematic theologies. We also need to bear in mind that the dispensationalists, despite the violence they do the word of God, are our brothers and sister in Christ; and we need to separate our disrespect of their theological aberrations from our respect of them as brethren.

 

Pride.....what ever happened to a teachable spirit?

When I was saved I was brought into the Dispensational theological view on eschatology. It all seemed amazing that you could plug this piece of scripture with that piece of scripture to show that you were "rightly dividing the word." It made me almost feel as if I had some special knowledge (gnosticism) and that others were not as spiritual as I!

However....as I just read through the scriptures, I am always reading into them what I was taught about dispensationalism. I have to say I have had a big problem with this. There are so many things that just don't fit and just seem to contradict other passages.

I am enjoying these discussions and am amazed at how many people just "cant" or "don't want to" see what seems so clear.

Please keep up the debate...and thank you Warren and Grasshopper.

 

Dr Bob:

Wow. It is hard for me to believe a man like you who is obviously well read would consider most of the great theologians and historians of the past as compromisers and tellers of myths. Let us review who you speak of:

C.H. Spurgeon

(On the Significance of A.D.70 ; Matthew 24:34)
"The destruction of Jerusalem was more terrible than anything that the world has ever witnessed, either before or since. Even Titus seemed to see in his cruel work the hand of an avenging God. (Commentary on Matthew, p. 412)

(On Matthew 24:15-21 , the Abomination of Desolation )
"This portion of our Saviour's words appears to relate solely to the destruction of Jerusalem. As soon as Christ's disciples saw "the abomination of desolation," that is, the Roman ensigns, with their idolatries, "stand in the holy place," they knew that the time for their escape had arrived; and they did flee to the mountains." (Matthew: The Gospel of the Kingdom. . p. 215.

(On Matthew 24:16 )
"The Christians in Jerusalem and the surrounding towns and villages, "in Judea ", availed themselves of the first opportunity for eluding the Roman armies, and fled to the mountain cityof Pella, in Perea, where they were preserved from the general destruction which overthrew the Jews. There was no time to spare before the final investment of the guilty city; the man "on the house-top" could "not come down to take anything out of his house", and the man "in the field" could not "return back, to take his clothes." They must flee to the mountains in the greatest haste the moment that they saw "Jerusalem compassed with armies "(Luke 21:20)."

(On Matthew 24:17)
"Then shall the end come." Before Jerusalem was destroyed, "this gospel of the kingdom." was probably "preached in all the world" so far as it was then known.."

John Calvin:
(On Matthew 24:34)
"The meaning therefore is: "This prophecy does not relate to evils that are distant, and which posterity will see after the lapse of many centuries, but which are now hanging over you, and ready to fall in one mass, so that there is no part of it which the present generation will not experience." (in loc.)
"For within fifty years the city was destroyed and the temple was razed, the whole country was reduced to a hideous desert, and the obstinacy of the world rose up against God." (Commentary on the Harmony of the Evangelists, Matthew, Mark, and Luke, vol. 3, trans. by William Pringle (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans, 1949), 151


Alfred Edersheim

(On Matthew 24:15-28)
"The Lord proceeds, in the third part of this discourse, to advertise the disciples of the great historic fact immediately before them, and of the dangers which would spring from it. In truth we have here His answer to their question 'when shall these things be?' And with this He conjoins the (then) present application of His warning regarding false Christs (given in verses 4, 5). The fact of which He now advertises them is the destruction of Jerusalem. It will be observed that the question, When shall these things be? is directly answered by the words, When ye shall see" (#Mt 24:15 Lu. 21:20).

Jonathan Edwards

(On I Thessalonians 2:16)
"The 'wrath is come,' i.e., it is just at hand; it is at the door: as it proved with respect to that nation: their terrible destruction by the Romans was soon after the apostle wrote this epistle." (Works, vol. iv. p. 281)

John Gill

(On Matthew 24:26)
"It was usual for these imposters to lead their followers into deserts, pretending to work wonders in such solitary places: so during the siege, Simon, the son of Giora, collected together many thousands in the mountains and desert parts of Judaea; and the above-mentioned Jonathan, after the destruction of the city, lead great multitudes into the desert: behold, he is in the secret chambers, believe it not; or should others say, behold, or for certain, the Messiah is in some one of the secret and fortified places of the temple; where, during some time of the siege, were John and Eleazar, the heads of the zealots; do not believe them. Some reference may be had to the chamber of secrets, which was in the temple; 'for in the sanctuary there were two chambers; one was called ... the chamber of secrets, and the other the chamber of vessels' " (John Gill, on Matthew 24:26).

(On Matthew 24:29)
Ver. 29. Immediately after the tribulation of those days, &c.] That is, immediately after the distress the Jews would be in through the siege of Jerusalem, and the calamities attending it; just upon the destruction of that city, and the temple in it, with the whole nation of the Jews, shall the following things come to pass; and therefore cannot be referred to the last judgment, or what should befall the church, or world, a little before that time, or should be accomplished in the whole intermediate time, between the destruction of Jerusalem, and the last judgment: for all that is said to account for such a sense, as that it was usual with the prophets to speak of judgments afar off as near; and that the apostles often speak of the coming of Christ, the last judgment, and the end of the world, as just at hand; and that one day with the Lord is as a thousand years, will not answer to the word "immediately", or show that that should be understood of two thousand years after: besides, all the following things were to be fulfilled before that present generation, in which Christ lived, passed away, #Mt 24:34 and therefore must be understood of things that should directly, and immediately take place upon, or at the destruction of the city and temple.
Shall the sun be darkened: not in a literal but in a figurative sense; and is to be understood not of the religion of the Jewish church; nor of the knowledge of the law among them, and the decrease of it; nor of the Gospel being obscured by heretics and false teachers; nor of the temple of Jerusalem, senses which are given into by one or another; but of the Shekinah, or the divine presence in the temple. The glory of God, who is a sun and a shield, filled the tabernacle, when it was reared up; and so it did the temple, when it was built and dedicated; in the most holy place, Jehovah took up his residence; here was the symbol of his presence, the mercy seat, and the two cherubim over it: and though God had for some time departed from this people, and a voice was heard in the temple before its destruction, saying, "let us go hence"; yet the token of the divine presence remained till the utter destruction of it; and then this sun was wholly darkened, and there was not so much as the outward symbol of it:
and the moon shall not give her light; which also is to be explained in a figurative and metaphorical sense; and refers not to the Roman empire, which quickly began to diminish; nor to the city of Jerusalem; nor to the civil polity of the nation; but to the ceremonial law, the moon, the church is said to have under her feet,

Matthew Henry

(On Matthew 24:14)
"It is intimated that the gospel should be, if not heard, yet at least heard of, throughout the then known world, before the destruction of Jerusalem; that the Old-Testament church should not be quite dissolved till the New Testament was pretty well settled, had got considerable footing, and began to make some figure. Better is the face of a corrupt degenerate church than none at all. Within forty years after Christ's death, the sound of the gospel was gone forth to the ends of the earth, Romans 10:18. St. Paul fully preached the gospel from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum; and the other apostles were not idle. The persecuting of the saints at Jerusalem helped to disperse them, so that they went every where, preaching the word, Acts 8:1–4. And when the tidings of the Redeemer are sent over all parts of the world, then shall come the end of the Jewish state. Thus, that which they thought to prevent, by putting Christ to death, they thereby procured; all men believed on him, and the Romans came, and took away their place and nation, John 11:48. Paul speaks of the gospel being come to all the world, and preached to every creature, Colossians 1:6, 23." (Matthew Henry's Commentary on the Whole Bible )


Eusebius

On Matthew 24:21)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella." (Book III, Ch. 5 history/eusebius_history)

(On Matthew 24:34 )
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." (Book III, Ch. 5 )

Justin Martyr

(On the Significance of A.D.70)
CHAP. XLVII.--DESOLATION OF JUDAEA FORETOLD.
That the land of the Jews, then, was to be laid waste, hear what was said by the Spirit of prophecy. And the words were spoken as if from the person of the people wondering at what had happened. They are these: "Sion is a wilderness, Jerusalem a desolation. The house of our sanctuary has become a curse, and the glory which our fathers blessed is burned up with fire, and all its glorious things are laid waste: and Thou refrainest Thyself at these things, and hast held Thy peace, and hast humbled us very sore."(6) And ye are convinced that Jerusalem has been laid waste, as was predicted. And concerning its desolation, and that no one should be permitted to inhabit it, there was the following prophecy by Isaiah: "Their land is desolate, their enemies consume it before them, and none of them shall dwell therein."(7) And that it is guarded by you lest any one dwell in it, and that death is decreed against a Jew apprehended entering it, you know very well." (Justin's First Apology )


John Owen

(On Matthew 24:29)
"Not to hold you too long upon what is so plain and evident, you may take it for a rule, that, in the denunciations of the judgments of God, through all the prophets, heaven, sun, moon, stars, and the like appearing beauties and glories of the aspectable heavens, are taken for governments, governors, dominions in political states, as Isa. 14:12-15; Jer 15:9, 51:25. Isaiah 13:13; Ps. 68:6; Joel 2:10; Rev. 8:12; Matt. 24:29; Luke 21:25; Isa 60:20; Obad. 4; Rev 8:13; 11:12; 20:11." (vol. 8, p. 255, in a sermon entitled Shaking and Translating of Heaven and Earth, preached on April 19, 1649)

(On Matthew 24:30)
"So upon or in the destruction of Jerusalem, Luke 21:27, the Son of man is said to 'come in a cloud, with power and great glory' - and they that escape in that desolation are said to 'stand before the Son of man, ver. 36." (vol. 9, p. 139)

Arthur Pink

(On Hebrews 10:25)
"and so much more as ye see the day approaching." There seems little room for doubt that the first reference here is to the destruction of the Jewish commonwealth, which was now very nigh for this epistle was written within less than eight years before Jerusalem was captured by Titus. That terrible catastrophe had been foretold, again and again, by Israel's prophets, and was plainly announced by the Lord Jesus in Luke 21. The approach of that dreadful "day" could be plainly seen or perceived by those possessing spiritual discernment: the continued refusal of the Nation to repent of their murder of Christ, and the abandoning of Christianity for an apostate Judaism by such large numbers, clearly presaged the bursting of the storm of God's judgment. This very fact supplied an additional motive for genuine Christians to remain faithful. The Lord Jesus promised that His followers should be preserved from the destruction of Jerusalem, but only as they attended to His cautions in Luke 21:8, 19, 34, etc., only as they persevered in faith and holiness, Matt. 24:13. The particular motive unto diligence here set before the Hebrews is applicable to other Christians just to the extent that they find themselves in similar circumstances." (Volume 2 Commentary on Hebrews (10:25).


Eusebius

On Matthew 24:21)
"But the people of the church in Jerusalem had been commanded by a revelation, vouchsafed to approved men there before the war, to leave the city and to dwell in a certain town of Perea called Pella." (Book III, Ch. 5 history/eusebius_history)

(On Matthew 24:34 )
"And when those that believed in Christ had come thither from Jerusalem, then, as if the royal city of the Jews and the whole land of Judea were entirely destitute of holy men, the judgment of God at length overtook those who had committed such outrages against Christ and his apostles, and totally destroyed that generation of impious men." (Book III, Ch. 5 )

 

The bible has several examples of partial fulfillments of prophecy, where the primary application of the prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. One that stands out in my mind right now is this one:

Matthew 3
1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Luke 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Matt 17
10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

John the Baptist was a fulfillment of a prophecy, but not the FINAL LITERAL fulfillment of the prophecy. He was spiritual Elijah, but there will be a literal return of the prophet. If AD 70 was a partial fulfillment of some end times prophecy, that does not erase the literal TOTAL fulfillment at the time of the end, and the literal second coming.

 

This is true also of the covenant with Abraham. Although there hs been compleation of some of the promises, other parts have never been realized, ie... The borders of the land.

 

Not according to Jesus or His disciples.

Here is the OT prophecy:

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Jesus clearly identifies John as this Elijah:

Matt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.

Matt 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come?
11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things.
12 But I say unto you, That Elias is come already , and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them.
13 Then the disciples understood that he spake unto them of John the Baptist .

Now even the disciples understood John was this Elijah. They too were probably looking for the physical Elijah, but that is not what was intended.

Notice vs. 6 of Mal. 4:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers , lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luke in telling of the birth of John says this:

Luke 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

More confirmation that John was the one Malachi prophesied of. To hold to a yet future Elijah is unscriptual.

Then you must find prophecies dealing with those events separate from those of AD70. The Olivet Discourse is about the events of AD70. On what grounds can one apply them to any future event? Jesus was speaking to the destruction of the Temple and the end of the Jewish age. To make this also apply to some other event is to take them out of their original meaning.

Luke 21:22 says those days were "the days of vengeance that all things written might be fulfilled." What is meant by "all things written"? The only things written at the time Jesus made this statement were the OT writings. Those who hold to the double-fulfillment theory basically infer that there are no direct prophecies concerning the second coming and end of the world, they are only found in types dealing with the events of AD70. My guess is this is why many people such as Dr. Bob refuse to allow the Olivet Discourse to be about the events of AD70, because if they are then you have major problems with futuristic eschatology. But what if the entire Olivet Discourse is speaking of the events of AD70?

 

Grasshopper, so you are saying that God cannot use one prophecy to foretell two events? What about this? I'll just cut and paste:

source: http://www.kingdombaptist.org/article633.cfm

 

Lest I forget:
John 1
Luke 1:19 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou?
20 And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ.
21 And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No.

John the Baptist apparently didn't understand prophecy very well.