This just in from the Vatican: The Pope's journey to the Cross

Deborah,

All that that means is that the Pope is the Earthly head of the Church.

Christ is the true head and always will be.

The Pope sits in the place of Peter who was given the charge of caring for the flock of Christ.

God Bless

 

Glen,

I can't find any biblical establishment of an "Earthly head of the Church".

1CO 11:3 "Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ"

EPH 4:11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. 14 Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15 Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. 16 From him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament, grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work."

So we have only one head - Christ. All of the rest of us have other jobs to do.

As for the Pope taking Peter's place, I would like to see a lot more similarities between the two before I would consider the pope as a suitable replacement.

Randy

 

"As for the Pope taking Peter's place, I would like to see a lot more similarities between the two before I would consider the pope as a suitable replacement."
"
Only former fishermen who betrayed Christ in the past need apply?

 

Let's start with one Biblical indicator of a true follower of Christ:

John 15:18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you."

Well, this last pope was perhaps the most loved, admired and respected person of our time by people the world over. So he certainly didn't meet this requirement.


MT 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them `Rabbi.'
MT 23:8 "But you are not to be called `Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth `father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called `teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.

Christ and Peter were both rejected by the religious establishment and certainly held no high and pompous position among men. Christ didn't even allow himself to be called "Father", so why in the world should we call ANY man by that title? The popes, by contrast, live in grand palaces, parade before the world in their grand attire and are called "Holy Father" by their followers and even many outside of the Roman church.

No, the pope is in absolutely no way a representation of Christ on earth. Nor does he fit the bill as a replacement for Peter.

 

Peter was not the head of the church, Read the following scripture carefully.

Matt 16-15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Jesus was talking to ALL the disciples. Peter answered with the right answer and then Jesus said: you are right, and I will build my church on the fact that I (Jesus) am the Christ. That is our rock. Not Peter!!

He went on to tell them all that they could remit sins etc. But He did not mean Peter was to be the head of anything!!

Selah,

Tam

 

Don't forget the part about having to cut off someone's ear.

 

In scripture Jesus was addressing Simon Barjona specifically, and gave him an important name change here to "Peter". He clearly was addressing Simon and gave him the name Peter. He didn't rename all of them "Peter", only Simon. Your loose translation left the whole name change out.

[ April 11, 2005, 05:30 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Matthew 16-17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Peter was already called Peter. In the following scripture you see that he was "Simon, called Peter" when Jesus called him to be a disciple.

Matthew 4-18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

In the Matthew 16-15 scripture, Jesus was saying to Peter: You know who I am just as I (Jesus) know who you are. You are Peter. I am Jesus. My church is based on truth!!!

So you see, Kathryn, there is no loose translation here, unless it was made by theRCC,

His name was already Peter.


Peace,

Tam

 

So, Simon Barjona just happened to already be nick-named "Rock", and it is just a coincidence that Jesus also is "Rock"? And you still insist when Jesus says "thou art Peter..." he was speaking to all the apostles? By, the way, Rock, was not used as a name for the Jews, because God himself was rock in the Old Testament. Jews would not take this name lightly.

 

Peter was also the one chosen by Jesus to strengthen the brothers when they would all fall away in order to fulfill scripture.

Jesus Christ says:
"but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, when once you have turned again, strengthen your brothers." Luke 22


John chapter 21 also tells of Jesus Christ specifically affirming Peter and charging Peter (Rock) to shepherd His flock in his absence:

[ April 11, 2005, 10:02 PM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

So Katherine (and Mike and Mioque),

Tell me how the Roman Catholic popes fit the bill to fill Peter's shoes for the church. Are they hated by the world as Peter was and Christ told his most ardent followers they would be?

Who do the popes resemble more? The ragtag apostles who were of no reputation and ultimately martyred? Or the religious leaders who performed their good deeds for all the world to see, and were called "Rabbi" (or "Holy Father") by their adherants?

Sincerely,
Randy

 

This Pope actually is not loved by all. Many hate him, especially atheists who believe strongly in abortion rights, homosexual rights, women's lib advocates, euthanasia rights, etc. Go to pro-abortion rights websites, or homosexual rights websites and read what they have to say about the Pope. They hated him. He has shed his blood for the faith. He took a bullet early on as Pope, and almost died. God however had more work for him to do.

 

Please do not be silly Kathryn. Nowhere in the scripture does it say that Jesus named Peter ROCK.

It says"upon this rock I will build my church".

Show me a scripture in the bible that says Jesus said Peter was the rock. So far I do not see one.

Peace,

Tam

 

Peter translates "rock". The New Testament was written in Greek, but Jesus was speaking Aramaic. He would have actually said, "Thou art Kepha (Rock)and upon this kepha I will build my church."

Jesus was specifically addressing Peter, not all the apostles.

 

To also show that Jesus was speaking Aramaic here, Jesus first calls him "Simon Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. "Bar-Jona" is aramaic for "son of John".

 

duplicate post

 

What do you do with 1 Corinthians 10:4?

And what about all of the Old Testament passages speaking of the rock?

NONE of those passages are speaking about Peter, or any mortal man, but refer to God and Christ Jesus in Him.

Peter can not be the rock unless you are to put him on par with God. I am in no way prepared or able to do that.

Peter was a man. He was not a rock. A rock is unmoveable, in this sense anyway. Peter oftentimes struggled with the truth. Paul even had to rebuke him from bringing back circumcision and other parts of the law service. The RCC would do well to heed Paul's warning as well. If they truly are descended from the individual church that Peter pastored, then they have obviously have carried over his mistakes.

Personally, I much prefer having a real Rock that truly is unmoveable than a mere man who was not above faults and ignorance.

Peter was a great man, but Christ is the Rock of my salvation.

Peter and Christ can not both be the Rock.

 

Jesus Christ is God. He can do anything he wants. He says Simon Barjona is rock also.

1 Cor. 3:11 - Jesus is called the only foundation of the Church, and yet in Eph. 2:20, the apostles are called the foundation of the Church. Scripture teaches both are true.

[ April 12, 2005, 01:34 AM: Message edited by: Kathryn ]

 

Here is my belief on Mat 16:18

Peter was indeed crucial for building up Christ's Church, along with John, James,and the rest of the apostles, Paul, and the prophets - each having crucial roles, and all of whom make up the foundation of the Church. Jesus alone is the Chief cornerstone of the Church. He holds the foundation together. The foundation was set 2000 years ago. It cannot be changed! (No popes are added to the foundation or are magically linked to Peter - that is unbiblical.)

#1 The Chief corner stone - Jesus. Without Him all the rest will crumble.
#2 The foundation - apostles and prophets.
#3 Saints and fellow believers.

Eph 2:17-22
17 And He came and preached peace to you who were afar off, and to those who were near.
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit to the Father.
19 Now therefore you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,
20 and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone,
21 in whom every building having been fitly framed together, grows into a holy sanctuary in the Lord;
22 in whom you also are built together for a dwelling place of God through the Spirit.

Yes, Peter is a rock and is part of the foundation, but he is NOT the only rock in the foundation. In Mat 16:18 Jesus had just made Peter a rock when he proclaimed by faith that he believed Jesus was the the Christ, the Son of the living God. I believe Jesus was talking to Peter but was also talking to all the other apostles at the same time, revealing to them who He is and teaching them that when they had true faith and proclaimed Jesus was the Messiah then they too would be rocks in the foundation. They, like Peter, would be rewarded the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven since they were going to be the very first church leaders after Jesus' resurrection. Of course they did not understand this at that point. Jesus was trying to teach them about faith, which was very crucial because they, as the new church leaders, would be teaching new believers who had never physically seen Jesus.

Mat 16:17 Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Also note, if Jesus gave Peter alone such supreme authority over the other aspostles, then why did they approach Jesus to ask Him which one of them was greater in Heaven? The following versus are another lesson Jesus teaches the apostles after arguing amongst themselves who was greater (probably soon after the incident above where Jesus called Peter the rock).

Mat 18:1-4
1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.


Peter was obviously not given a higher rank than the other apostles, he was just the first among them to humble himself as a little child and proclaim by faith to the others that Jesus was the Messiah. The other apostles did the same soon after and were also made rocks in the foundation. These were lessons for the apostles to prepare them for their roles in building up the Church after Jesus' resurrection.

In Christ,
Deborah

 

In the OT, we see where God has given one man (at a time) to lead His people on earth. I believe we can all agree on that.

When Jesus was on earth, He lead the people on earth.

Peter was choosen by Jesus to lead His people on earth after Jesus return to Heaven. And this position would continue after Peter's death.

Do you all honestly believe that God would abandon all His children and leave them with no physical leader on earth after all those years of providing one for them?

What about God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever? IMHO, it doesn't seem like you can believe that to be true and deny that God would provide an earthly leader to shepherd His sheep.