This probably isn't going to be popular on this forum, but...

One son to death, one husband to divorce, her health, and her money. She still has most of her children, so you are right she hasn't lost everything.

So be it. She took on an issue you don't support. Your boys won, she lost and she's quitting. Kicking her while she's down in this thread doesn't seem very sporting.

She is a Roman Catholic so I would personally doubt that she is saved, however her salvation is not necessary for us to exhibit a little charity.

I'm sure you're aware of the complexity of this issue without needing to pull out the "you have strange views for a Christian" card.

 

Rufus, we probably don't agree on a lot of political issues, but on this I know we agree. Thank you for your charitable Christian behavior towards Sheehan. Regardless of her political views it is obvious she is broken-hearted and in need of comfort and good godly prayers being sent up on her behalf.

 

If she lost those things due to this, it was due to choices she made. You can't complain when you have to lie in the bed you made. But the bottom line is that only in a very materialistic, self-centered culture, is that "losing everything." I don't want to be to blunt about it, but let's face it: Christianity is a lifestyle of losing everything. So I am not greatly concerned when people lose everything.

Actually I haven't judged her. But we are commanded to judge people's salvation for different purposes like church membership etc. All I pointed out was that I have seen no evidence of salvation, and the biblical presumption is that people are not saved since that is how they are born.

I haven't done that and don't recommend it.

But he was one, and life is precious. So I don't think lives lost in pursuit of freedom and life are wasted. Perhaps we disagree on that. I think God doesn't value life based on the country in which someone lives. Therefore, live in Iraq is just as important as life in America. And I am not even saying we should have to war. I am simply saying that their lives weren't wasted.

We didn't quit chasing OBL and the fact that "other people are mean too" is hardly a justification. Again, I am not saying we should or shouldn't have gone to war. I am addressing only the fact that the lives weren't wasted. To say that they were is to spit on the graves.

I commentd only on what you said. I would think that your words here would give us a clue about your Christian values and viewpoints. Surely you are not speaking for someone else are you? I may not have much of a clue, but I do have your words that you have spoken. Assuming that they are your words, they give us insight into your Christian values and viewpoints.

 

Some of those losses are also due to her own choices. As I pointed out, when you choose to commit yourself to something, you invite certain consequences.

My boys won?? Who are my boys? I don't have a dog in this fight. I originally supported the war. In retrospect, as I have said before, we probably should not have gone to war. I do support the troops and I believe we ought to finish what we started. furthermore, I am not kicking her while she is down.

I didn't know she was RC, and I have demonstrated no lack of charity. I have respect for people who make commitments and own the costs of them. I was talking about that in church this past Sunday. But one can't complain about the costs if you are truly making a commitment to something.

I think it is very complex, which is why I reject the very simplistic explanations and arguments that Sheehan and others have made. My only point was about the comment about wasted lives. Regardless of what you think about the WMDs, intelligence, the Bush adminstration, the anti-war movement, etc, the fact that a nation was freed from a murderous dictator is something good. I don't see how that can be considered a loss of life. The comment implied that protecting life in Iraq was a waste of life. I disagree and I think that is a strange view for a Christian to hold. There was no attack in that at all. I simply said I thought it was strange. (BTW, I think many things are strange ... ).

 

All of which was her fault.

 

What do my views concerning the Iraq war have to do with my Christian values and viewpoints? I never supported the war in Iraq, and yes I do believe it was a waste of American lives. Does that mean I do not support the troops? Of course not. I do, but I will remain vocal about my objection to the Iraq war. It has nothing to do with my Christianity. Besides, I don't see any passages in the Bible where Christians are commanded to "free" nations of their dictators. Let's not forget the fact that as a nation we supported dictators in the past if they were of the "right" political persuasion, just as we supported terrorism to promote the "correct" political ideologies.

 

So what? Why does that matter? It is still not Christ like to kick when she is down.

 

...and just as we supported this dictator.

 

I believe our Christianity affects everything. There should be nothing untouched by our the life of Christ in us. Here was my point:

1. You said that you tended to agree that the soldiers "died for nothing."
2. I pointed out that they died to free a nation from a tyranical dictator that had killed multiplied (and unknown) thousands of innocent people.

I believe that when people die in the defense of life, their lives were not wasted. I think Christianity (yea, even humanity) means that life is inherently precious, and dying to preserve it is not a waste. I don't see how a Christian can view the loss of life under the tyranny of Hussein as acceptable.

I don't think your objection to the war has anything to do with your Christianity. Christians can certainly fall on both sides of this complex and difficult issue. My point was direct at your comment about wasted lives.

Me either. But I didn't think that was the debate.

I think the Christian position is to be consistently pro-life. It is not just about the unborn in America. It is about people elsewhere as well. I don't think people who die to defend life are wasted, and I don't see how that view is compatible with the value that God places on life.

 

Your comments are appreciated.

There were 1.5 million Christians in Iraq prior to the war. 500,000 remain as the others have fled and the only location of relative security is now in the Kurdish north. Praise God for the Baptist church in Baghdad but let's not get carried away in thinking that the Iraqi war has been good for Iraqi Christians.

How much does it cost and where do I sign?

 

Yep! Cindy Sheehan has had more than her share of 15 minutes of fame but now it's time to forgive and forget unless there are some that would rather keep kicking a person when they are down and out.
Mark 11: 25 and 26

25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.
26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.

 

It would appear Mrs. Sheehan agrees with you...

"I don't think calling names is effective, it's not my style anymore. It used to be but it's not anymore. I'm trying to mature my activism, and mature my rhetoric to still be confrontational but not calling names. I was very, very angry back in those days." - Cindy Sheehan (Source: Cindy Sheehan On The Hot Seat - Video)​

 

It's a blood debt. Always has been. Always will be. Our signature means nothing and money cannot buy it.

 

I agree that Christianity affects everything, but still have disagree with your point concerning American soldiers. I understand where you are coming from and I respect your view, but I still feel that these Americans died in a needless war. That does not effect the impact of their lives on others including Iraqui's but they still should have not died in this unjust war. In that respect, and only that one, I believed they died for nothing.

 

My take on it: http://liberalimplosion.blogspot.com/2007/05/dont-let-door-hit-you-on-way-out.html

 

How much blood will need to be spilled so that the citizens of the United States can be free again?

 

I in no way agree with the tactics Sheehan used, but I kind of understand them. Whenever I saw her, I saw through the rhetoric to the immense amount of pain she was suffering. Having dealt with grief in some very personal ways and being on the brink of death at one point myself, I kind of understand her anger and reactionary response. People do a lot of things they normally would not in the wake of grief and anger. Again, I am not saying her tactics are right.

 

These two statements seem contradictory. I have no problem saying they died in a needless war. I do have a problem saying they died for nothing.