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Featured Those who concede errors in the Scriptures n order to remove conflict with science

Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by Revmitchell, Dec 5, 2012.

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  1. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    Again, why the assumption that OE creationists are allowing science to tell them what the Bible means?

    He is our Creator, and He indeed made the rules.

    One rule is not to bear false witness.

    One can INFER 24 hours from the Exodus passage, but it does not say they were 24 hour days.

    To be dogmatic and say those that disagree with our INFERRALS do not accept scripture is to bear false witness.

    Not much difference from my Jewish friend (since deceased) who spurned Jesus as the Messiah because Elijah "had not come." She just couldn't see the forest for the trees.

    We know God created the heavens, the earth, and all in them. We don't know the date He did so. Plain and simple, we don't know.

    To go beyond what He did say and try to tell the world "it says A so it must mean B" is to go beyond the lines He laid out for us.

    If we focus on telling them what He did say, rather than what He meant, we obey and will see the lost saved.
     
  2. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Bearing false witness is a planned, deliberate, deceptive statement. False witness is not expressing an opinion that turns out to be incorrect.
     
  3. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Sad that needs to be explained. But when desperation and defensiveness sets in that is the kind of thing you get.
     
  4. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Rev, I don't see desperation and defensiveness, guess I am not quite as perceptive as I need to be.
     
  5. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    Death Before the fall?

    To accept the teachings of OE "creationism", a "gap" theory, or any kind of evolutionary millions/billions type of "creative" method, molecules to man,etc.,etc., one almost certainly has to accept the idea that there was DEATH before the fall into sin in the garden and the subsequent curse under which we all find ourselves unto this very day. YEC, 6 literal 24 hour days of creation and the literal historical account of God speaking all of this into existence by the Word of His mouth is what we must accept by faith. Faith is the key. The Bible is accurate and true word for word and it's history can be taken in faith with absolute confidence. I feel genuine sadness for any who cannot accept the truth of this. It is possible to be so educated and (supposedly) smart that one can educate themselves into a state of unbelief. Very sad.:tear: It is not possible to lose one's salvation but it most certainly is possible to lose the peace and joy of one's salvation......and any effectiveness as a witness or disciple.

    Bro.Greg:praying:
     
  6. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Glad I am not all alone in having "educated myself into unbelief".

    The following individuals—respected authors, Bible scholars, scientists, pastors, linguists, and more—hold to a diversity of views on the timing of God’s creation. And yet all have affirmed, in documented sources, that an ancient universe and Earth (including big bang cosmology) pose no threat to Christian orthodoxy, but rather may be considered plausible and valid interpretations, even literal interpretations, of the biblical text. Not one sees the question of age as a crucial doctrinal issue.

    John Ankerberg
    Gleason Archer
    John Battle
    Michael Behe
    William Jennings Bryan
    Walter Bradley
    Jack Collins
    Chuck Colson
    Paul Copan
    William Lane Craig
    Norman Geisler
    Robert Godfrey
    Guillermo Gonzales
    Hank Hannegraff
    Jack Hayford
    Fred Heeren
    Charles Hodge
    Walter Kaiser
    Greg Koukl
    C. S. Lewis
    Paul Little
    Patricia Mondore
    J. P. Moreland
    Robert Newman
    Greg Neyman
    Mark Noll
    Nancy Pearcey
    Perry Phillips
    William Phillips
    Mike Poole
    Bernard Ramm
    Jay Richards
    Hugh Ross
    Fritz Schaefer
    Francis Schaeffer
    C. I. Scofield
    Chuck Smith Jr.
    David Snoke
    Lee Strobel
    Ken Taylor
    B. B. Warfield
     
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    We don't need to "infer" they were 24 hour days. There is too much evidence to conclude anything else but.
    When the evidence of Christ himself is there that should be good enough. There are plenty of quoted from Christ referring back to Genesis.

    Christ refers back to the Sabbath many times. He is Lord of the Sabbath. The Jews celebrated and still do, the Sabbath. It was and is, the seventh day of creation. If it is a 24 hour day now, it is only reasonable to conclude that it was then, as were all the other days.

    Gen 2:1-3
    (1) Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
    (2) And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
    (3) And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

    Jesus also refers back to the creation of man:
    Matthew 19:4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

    Jesus believes in creation and refers back to the creation of Adam and Eve. When were they created? On the sixth day.
    Adam died, according to Genesis 5, when he was 930 years old. If there is an old earth, as a result of the day-age theory that would make Adam at least 1,930 years old if that theory were entertained.

    It would make it impossible for all plant life to live seeing it was created on the third day and insects like bees were created a full three days later on the sixth days. Could plants exist for three thousand years without bees or insects to pollinate them? Could most of them exist through a thousand years of darkness?

    Almost all plants operate through the process of photosynthesis--a process that requires light.

    As far as the Gap theory is concerned:
    1. There is no mention of it anywhere in the Bible. Every Bible author is silent about it.
    2. Death came into the world via Adam, not any other entity. There was no death before Adam.
    3. There was no Curse before Adam. Through Adam came the curse, not a former "creation."
    4. God created all things in six 24 hour days, as is evident from the evidence given above.

    In every place where the formula is given: "and the evening and morning were the ___day," it cannot mean any thing but a 24 hour day. It is qualified by "evening and morning," not simply the usual meaning of "yom." It is also qualified by a numeral: first, second, third, etc.

    There is no evidence for either gap or day/age theory.

    A good book to read is Henry Morris's book "Biblical Creationism," which gives every reference in the Bible that points back to creation. It solidifies in a person's mind how that Genesis one can be nothing but a literal creation consisting of nothing but six 24 hour days.
     
  8. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    You are aware, I think, that days are not 24 hours.

    So you start from a faulty premise and create a whole theology.

    And denigrate those who don't accept it.
     
  9. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    No I am not aware that days are not 24 hours.
    Also the Bible is not a book of science but is scientifically accurate.
    My premise is not faulty. The facts stated are true. Do you infer that Christ lies?
     
  10. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    It is not an assumption is the truth. A straightforward reading of the Creation story would indicate a 6 day creation. This is further demonstrated by the passage from Exodus!


    How long were the days when Exodus was recorded? Twenty Four hours.
     
  11. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    DHK

    I believe that there are two strong proofs for the validity of the OLDTestament Scripture:

    1. The fulfillment in the New Testament of Old Testament prophecy.

    2, Jesus Christ put His stamp of approval on the Old Testament by quoting from each Book of the Canon. In particular He mentions the creation of Adam and Eve and the institution of marriage!
     
  12. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    And the evening and the morning were the first day.

    God could have said the evening and the morning were the first age, or the first period of time, or some other ambiguous word, but it is obvious that He intended for the readers of His word to understand that He was talking about a normal 24 hour day by using the phrase "the evening and the morning".
     
  13. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Being that this is a narrative and not some liberal allegorical hogwash that makes is abundantly clear.
     
  14. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

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    Dude, chill out. I'm not angry or anything. I've just pointed out something that should be obvious. We all hate to be questioned. Everybody. On all sides of this and other hotly-contested biblical issues.
     
  15. jaigner

    jaigner Active Member

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    LOL...what?!?
     
  16. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    ???

    What do you mean.....what?!?:laugh:

    Bro.Greg
     
  17. nodak

    nodak Active Member
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    OldRegular--we definitely agree that God put His stamp of approval on the OT. And on the creation and marriage of Adam and Eve.

    Amy--many old earthers will agree with you about 24 hour days but it still doesn't lead them to YEC.

    And to be honest, the use of morning and evening may indeed mean days as we know them, but it can also mean beginning and ending.

    It's above my pay grade to say "God said this so we KNOW He obviously meant that."

    I'll fight for what He said, just not for interpretations into what He meant.
     
  18. quantumfaith

    quantumfaith Active Member

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    Thank You Nodak, there are multitudes of committed believers who "hold to and OE" position, many of which are "well known" people of faith. Does that make them right...no, but I gladly and unashamedly stand in that camp. I also admit (something I think is hard for many here in BB land to admit) I do not have it "all" figured out and reduced to nice theological bullet points. I have personally spoken with several pastors over my 50 years who privately hold to OE principles, but for the sake of unity will not speak of such things. I understand their position and the delicacies of undeserved JUDGEMENT.
     
  19. percho

    percho Well-Known Member
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    Isaiah 45:18 says that God did not create the earth tohuw תהו.
    Gen 1:2,3 says the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, and God said let there be light.

    That took place upon an earth that the earlier part of verse two says was
    tohuw תהו.

    Well was the earth tohuw of which Isaiah 45:18 says it wasn't created as or had the earth been created something else and the earth became tohuw?

    God said let there be light. What light was this. It wasn't the light of the sun which came four evening and morning later. I say that light was the light of the presence of God in which one could walk with. The presence of God had been absent from the once created earth and the reason for darkness (the presence of death and Satan) being upon the face of the deep. However I believe that darkness which was here before Spirth the God appeared and the light of God to have been at that moment a 24 hour period, and here is why. Compare that to.

    John 11:9,10 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If any man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because there is no light in him.

    That day and night there also represent good and evil and or God and Satan and Jesus is about to go and raise Lazarus from death that is the dead. And there is appointed twelve hours to the light, day and therefore I assume also twelve hours to the darkness, night. Oddly enough, I believe when this took place it was very close to the time of the spring equinox.
     
  20. Gregory Perry Sr.

    Gregory Perry Sr. Active Member

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    As I Understand The Issue....

    My understanding of the OE vs YEC issue is as follows: (and before I say it let me say that I know of NO ONE who declares that they have all the finer points of things figured out....yet.....and the "yet" will be after we meet the Lord face to face...in my opinion)...Now as to the issue....the BIG difference is....!

    OE teaching,"gap" theory,etc., by it's very nature means that there was/had to be chaos, DEATH, and destruction PRIOR to the fall of man into sin.

    &

    YEC teaching affirms that there was none of the above until after the fall into sin and subsequent curse as taught in Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3. It is this very affirmation that leads me to soundly reject OE teaching or any form of theistic evolutionary thinking. They simply cannot coexist Biblically. Death itself had never existed prior to the fall if you take God at His own word (and I do....and hope you all do as well).

    Bro.Greg:saint:
     
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