1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Those who deny the general redemption.

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by 37818, Sep 25, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Piper

    Piper Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Common grace is a systematic theological deduction from biblical theological roots with two major components: (1) it describes God’s indiscriminate kindness to all men, believers and unbelievers, through the abundant and daily blessings of earthly life (e.g., Ps 145:9; Acts 14:17), the restraint of the power and effects of sin (Gen 6:3; 2 Th 2:6-7), and the delay of judgment (Rom 2:4); and (2) it describes any behavior or product of (particularly unregenerate) man that mirrors either divine truth or divine character (e.g., Acts 17:28). It seems apparent that common grace in the sense of (2) is rooted predominantly in the remnants and influence of the imago dei.

    The Basis of God's Common Grace - BJU Seminary
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. Piper

    Piper Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
    For example, the fact that we can get fresh oranges in Minnesota in 20 below temps is common grace.
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  3. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    12,312
    Likes Received:
    961
    Faith:
    Baptist
  4. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    What was the purpose of the atonement? It was that the sins of all mankind be covered. Which it did. So the atonement was effective even if no one was in fact saved. The atonement saved no one. It is only those that trust in the risen Lord that are saved.
     
  5. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    17,853
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    Faith:
    Baptist
    As in He bought the whole field in order to have the treasure hidden in that field. Matthew 13:44

    "This is what I was taught growing up Southern Baptist, that children were innocent until the age of accountability but I never heard it explained with scripture until I met the most influential sovereign grace Bible teacher in my life, Arthur Crawford. The non-denominational group (also sovereign grace) I was part of at that time held to ‘innocent till the age of accountability’. I believe Donald Barnhouse in his Romans commentaries was in agreement with Arthur Crawford in recognizing from scripture a universal aspect of the atonement.

    18 So then as through one trespass the judgment came unto all men to condemnation; even so through one act of righteousness the free gift came unto all men to justification of life. Ro 5

    9 And I was alive apart from the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died; Ro 7

    ...meaning that Christ's atonement did away with Adam's transgression passing down upon all men and all men are now born innocent and eventually become guilty of their own accord.

    No doubt this view will send some hardshell Calvinists into convulsions but it does relieve the Calvinist tension with other ‘universal passages’ such as:

    10 For to this end we labor and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of them that believe. 1 Tim 4

    9 There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. Jn 1 "

    Babies In Hell 2 | Baptist Christian Forums (baptistboard.com)
     
  6. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    22,991
    Likes Received:
    845
    Faith:
    Baptist
    1 Peter 2:24 (NASB)
    and He Himself bore our sins in His body up on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live for righteousness; by His wounds you were healed.

    1) He Himself refers to Jesus Christ
    2) our sins refers to humanities sin burden
    3) bore refers to Christ carrying the burden of our sins as our sin offering, the Lamb of God.
    4) in His body refers His live body being the sacrifice for humanities sin burden.
    5) we might die to sin refers to all the ones absolved of their sin burden
    6) live for righteousness refers to those born anew, who are created for good works.
    7) by His wounds you were healed refers to our salvation from the penalty of sin because Christ suffered and died

    Since Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, nowhere in this verse is any suggestion of limited atonement.
     
  7. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2009
    Messages:
    17,853
    Likes Received:
    2,508
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Wrong:

    1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, ! Pet 1
    24 who his own self bare our sins in his body upon the tree, that we, having died unto sins, might live unto righteousness; by whose stripes ye were healed. 1 Pet 2
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Austin you keep saying "a general atonement has already been refuted by me" to bad the bible does not agree with you. But then the bible and you rarely agree.
     
  9. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The bible speaks of grace, not special or common. Just grace, it is your theology that requires the addition of those words.
     
  10. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Your reading your calvinism into the text again KY. You continue do proof-texting.

    2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
    2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
    2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
    2Co 5:20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ's behalf, be reconciled to God.
    2Co 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    While Christ came to save the whole world {cover their sins} only those that trust in the risen Christ will be saved. You are allowing your calvinist view to blind you to what the bible says. You have focused on
    1Pe 2:24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed.
    But you are not looking at the rest of scripture. Christ covered {healed} the sins of all so that those that believe in the risen Son could be saved
    Rom 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

    I am not denying 1Pe 2:24 but you are denying the rest of scripture. You are trying to proof-text your theology. KY you need to trust the whole of scripture.
     
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    1,347
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I wonder if it is more accurate to call it a common mercy. God holds off on giving to us what we deserve, which is the wages of our sin...death. This is a common mercy that brings with it the outcomes of a capitalist market which delivers oranges to Minnesota in January.
    Though I understand that the flip side of mercy is grace in which God gives to us something we do not deserve and in receiving oranges in January Minnesotan's do receive a common grace as it were.
     
    • Friendly Friendly x 1
  12. Piper

    Piper Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I heard a better definition of Grace.
    God is the "me, the spring of living water," Jeremiah 2:13
    and he is constantly overflowing out of his self sufficiency. That grace splashes on us, not randomly, but sovereignly, and we get it.

    So, grace is the overflow of God's self sufficiency.
     
  13. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    1,347
    Faith:
    Baptist
    From your verse you cannot get "common grace" since in that verse God is speaking directly to "my people" not to the entire world.
     
  14. Piper

    Piper Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    145
    Likes Received:
    27
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I was not limiting grace to that verse.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    1,347
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Did I say you were limiting grace to that verse?

    "From your verse you cannot get "common grace" since in that verse God is speaking directly to "my people" not to the entire world."

    I said you cannot extract common grace from that verse in Jeremiah 2:13.
     
  16. JD731

    JD731 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2020
    Messages:
    1,443
    Likes Received:
    153
    Faith:
    Baptist

    You need to have the gospel of Jesus Christ presented to you one time in the context of the gospel of God because you do not know either.

    There would never have been a gospel of Jesus Christ that brings salvation to individuals if there had not been in the counsel of God a gospel of God. I will make this short and sweet and assume that you know something about Jehovah in world history, though I know that is dangerous.

    The theme of the New Testament ministry of Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, meaning the apostle to the nations, is the gospel of God. This theme is introduced in the very first sentence in the first epistle that appears in the canon of scripture that is addressed to gentiles, Rom 1:1.. The sentence is 7 verses long but this theme is the beginning of the sentence, the first thing mentioned in verse 1 and is the reason for the apostle Paul, who was not a part of the apostolic band of the twelve. Paul calls the gospel of God, "my gospel," and for good reason. Here is his reason stated succinctly Here;

    Eph 3:6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
    7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
    8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

    I know! I know! This cannot penetrate your minds and so I am saying very little of the lot I could say about this but you will not receive it. I will give you what Paul under the inspiration of God said the definition of the gospel of God is. And you notice the wording.

    Rom 16:24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel (which has been established in the epistle as being the gospel of God), and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
    27 To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.

    .Try that on for size. The obedience of faith. I want you to see this one other point.

    During the previous two thousand years of human history before Jesus died and rose again, God dealt with the nation he raised up from Abraham. The gentiles had no relationship with God. They had no prescribed blood atonement or offering to bring to God as a peace offering. Therefore God could not reconcile the nations and there was enmity between him and them. Then Jesus came into the world as a man and died an atoning death because he was the perfect sacrifice, having neither blot or stain. The nations now have a blood sacrifice they can bring to God and that is the good news from God. God provided it himself. Now I want you to read this next three verses very carefully and take time to read the context. It is written to gentiles after the cross and tells us some amazing good news.

    Ep 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
    12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
    13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

    What you are preaching about Jesus Christ is not the gospel of God. The gospel of God is that Jesus Christ is his answer for all men. He has made peace between God and man and God will receive any and all who will come to him in the name of Jesus Christ. The gospel of God includes the gospel of Christ. Jesus Christ has been provided to us as our blood sacrifice.

    I encourage you to believe it.
     
  17. Brightfame52

    Brightfame52 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2020
    Messages:
    1,758
    Likes Received:
    411
    Faith:
    Baptist
    jd731

    That Jesus Christ death saved everyone He died for, His Sheep is not the Gospel ?
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    1,347
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There are so many errors in your post that I just don't know where to even start.
    It should be noted that the Apostle Paul quotes extensively from the Old Testament in his letter to the Romans. He is presenting to both Jew and Gentile that their justification before God is by faith alone. He points out that this has always been the case as Abraham, who was never under the law, was justified by faith, not by the law. We see that the promise given to Abraham was that all the nations would be blessed. We read in the prophets about how all the nations will be reached and those who were one not my people will be my people (Hosea 1).
    God's gospel has always been that He would redeem His people out of bondage to sin.

    What you have presented is a really poor understanding of God's overall plan.
     
  19. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That Jesus Christ death saved everyone He died for those are your words BF so lets see who Christ Jesus died for.

    Luk_5:32 died for sinners
    1Ti_2:6 who gave Himself a ransom for all
    Heb_2:9 might taste death for everyone
    1Ti_4:10 Savior of all men, especially of those who believe
    Joh_3:15 whoever believes in Him
    Joh_3:17 the world
    Rom_5:6 Christ died for the ungodly
    2Pe_2:1 false teachers
    Eph_5:25 the Church
    Gal_2:20 gave Himself for me. {Paul / me}

    The sure looks like He died for everyone wouldn't you say. Well that is if the bible is actually your authority.

    BF I knew you were a closet universalist.
     
  20. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    3,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Christ came to save sinners through faith in Him. Hear the gospel, believe the gospel, saved by God. That is not a hard plan to understand.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...