Three Kingdom's of God (Eschatology)

As I thought; your and my views are an infinity apart.

Therefore, something totally different:

"hee that is least in the kingdome of heauen, is greater then he (John the baptist)."

He that is least, is Jesus Christ. He is greater than any in the Kingdom of Heaven; He is King of the Kingdom of heaven. That Kingdom is His since He became Lord and King of it; which was when God raised Him in the Glory of the Father, in fact, exalted Him to his Own Right Hand in Heavenly Exaltation when He brought Him again from the grave.

His Kingdom is the First Resurrection Thousand years. His Kingdom is without beginning and without end. Today if you hear His Voice, do not harden your heart!

 

Ed

The question was:

Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?

You are misrepresenting the thread I started . The question was specifically referring to the incarnation, the first coming of Jesus Christ, and you know that it was. The question was posed because dispensationalists insist that Jesus Christ came the first time to offer an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews, which was rejected so He established the Church instead.

It has not been answered yet, and it cannot be answered because Jesus Christ came to establish the Church, not to overthrow the Roman yoke and establish a carnal Jewish Kingdom.

Your quote from Matthew certainly does not answer the question since it is speaking about some time in the future. It is interesting that you chose the Holman [Is it dispensational?] translation of the Bible to find your quote. The KJV version is

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The word regeneration translates the Greek word paliggenesia which according to Strongs [#3824] means

"1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration
1a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death
1b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge
1c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught
1d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.
1e) other uses
1e1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile
1e2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile
1e3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection"

No Messianic Kingdom here. The Holman translation does an injustice to Southern Baptists.

 

OldRegular:
"Can someone or anyone show one passage of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offered an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews?"

GE:
O.R., I have come to New, Irregular conclusions regarding the Messianic Kingdom the past few day --- through this very discussion forum, BabtistBoard!

I'll cite my conclusions here, too, if you would not mind,
"
ES:
“In another place, it mentions Jesus speaking of one who would dip his hand in the dish, along with the Lord Jesus.”
GE:
John 13:17, Jesus gave to Judas to show what He insinuated; it doesn’t even mention this expression.
Mk14:20, read verse 19 first, then, “And He answered and said unto them, It is one of the twelve that dippeth with me in the dish. .... Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”
Now there is no doubt bread was eaten only once during the Lord’s Supper of the Last Meal. (One may plainly call it the last passover meal, not meaning it was the Passover’s Meal of sacrifice, because it was the meal of the last passover Feast season that Jesus would eat.) Now there is no doubt bread was eaten only once during the Lord’s Supper of the Last Meal, just like the cup was drunk only once in Holy Communion. I think it is to the dishonour of the Lord’s Supper if the cup was used again. (Some people insist the cup went round as many as four times --- and then I have noticed they deny the Passover’s Seder used unfermented wine!)
However, if you are right in assuming both verses 18 and 20 should be taken literally as if the disciples and Jesus actually ate, then food was taken twice— which I also think would dishonour the Lord’s Supper. Besides looking like the gluttony Paul wrote against, it implies Christ’s dying once was not enough; as if He had to die again.
But Luke says, “the hand of him who betrayeth me is with me on the table”. Selfsame thing; literalness is out of the question.
Then Luke also says Jesus “took the bread, broke it, and gave unto them. .... (Mt) And He took the cup .... and gave thanks .... and gave to them .... But I say unto you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine until ....”.
The idea, “henceforth / no more” in “I say unto you, I will not henceforth drink of this fruit of the vine”, does not imply Jesus this time did drink, but won’t again drink until .... It actually is an emphatic assurance He would this time not at all eat (anything)!
Idiomatically, figuratively and literally, Jesus said,
“I with desire (acutely / greatly) desired this passover to eat with you before my suffering, but I tell you that no-more-by-any-means (‘ouketi ou meh’, definitely not) do I eat it” (‘fagoh auto’)— literally. There’s no, ‘Will I not eat’, Future; but, actually, and presently at table, “Do I not eat, until it (‘it’, ‘This Passover’) is fulfilled in the Kingdom of God”. “.... it is fulfilled” (plehrohthehi)— Aorist Subjunctive: “.... until I would have had fulfilled it (auto)”.
This has been telling us , when, Jesus would actually eat and drink the Passover of Yahweh.
And this has also been the Lord telling us, where, He actually – retrospectively speaking – did eat or had had eaten and had had drunk, the Passover of Yahwhe. Where then? “.... fulfilled in the Kingdom of God”.
Is that too difficult to understand, that the ‘Kingdom of God’ Jesus here spoke of, would be, and in fact had been, the very Glory of God beginning and being fulfilled in Christ in His suffering, death and resurrection from the dead? Not if the Word is heard from texts like, “Truly the Son of Man goeth (forth into His Glory).” “Son of Man” is Title of Honour and Glory. “Goeth forth” is triumphal procession of Victor Lord and King of the Kingdom of God. See how the kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship (verse 23-25). “But ye shall not be so (nor shall the Kingdom of God): But He, that is Greatest among you .... He, that is Chief, (is) as He that doth serve. .... I AM – among you – (is) as He, that serveth!” Yahweh, serving Lord.
Christ in entering into His Suffering, is as He that Serveth that enters in into His Kingdom of Glory. Who ate the Lord’s Supper, he who sitteth at meat (the disciples who ate), or He that serveth”: Christ who in His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God: “I AM among you as He that serveth”-KING?
Ed Sutton, I could not say these thing before I found out about why Exodus dates both Passover’s Sacrifice and Passover’s Meal on Nisan 14! And why ever since the first passover, the meal of the passover, would always be observed on Nisan 15, as reached it out towards the Passover Lamb of God and us before. “Until He in having come into His Kingdom would have observed Passover, Sacrifice and, Meal, on Nisan 14.
Christentum dass nicht ganz und gar Eschatologie ist, hat mit Christus Jesus ganz und gar und Restlos, nichts zu tun! (Karl Barth)"

The beginning and the entering into the Kindgdom of God by the King and Lord of that Kingdom to me it seems, happened where and when no one would have expected it. Not even for Christ, was the Kingdom of heaven some far away heavenly state of bliss in heaven or on earth; rather the very antagonist of it.

 

Ed,

There is only ONE kingdom according in the Bible, not three kingdoms.

In John 3:3 and 5 tell us that Christ says we must be born again or cannot into the kingdom of God. That means, if we refuse repent of our sins, then cannot have eternal life-salvation.

God only offer ONE salvation- Jesus Christ, no other else.

Also, both 'kingdom of God' & 'kingdom of heaven' are same meaning.

Suppose, you believe there are three kingdoms, then that means three heavens according as what Mormons teaching. Are you Mormon? Huh?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

You should be aware that 'dispensation' is not in Greek. In Greek for 'dispensation' should be 'stewardship' - Greek #3622. 'Dispensation' used in English word of KJV.

Dispensation have three different meanings. Dispensation means steward, adminstration, and economy. It never meaning of "different ages". 'Dispensation' find in Bible only 4 times - 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; and Col. 1:25.

Many pretribs and premills who teaching dispensationalism doctrine. Many are misunderstanding what 1 Cor. 9:17; Eph. 1:10; 3:2; and Col. 1:25 are talking about. Also, they misinterpreting them on 'dispensation' with 4 verses, also throughout all scriptures about God's plan.

Let's focus on 4 verses of 'dispensation;, what these verses actual talking about. More importantly, we should not depend on one word only, also we need to understand the structural of grammar base upon verse what it is talking about. Even, not only focus on one verse, also, read through the context of the passage to undertsand whole what it is all about.

let's look at 4 verses of 'dispensation':

1. 1 Corinthians 9:17 -"For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."

Does this verse say that God gives a different plan to Paul? This verse is not suggest speak of different salvation. Rather, this verse talking about God's command has given the task to Paul to do his duty to fulfill God's command.

The only way that we can understand 1 Cor. 9:17 better, to read the context throughout chapter 9 what it is all talk about.

Paul's point was, God's Will that He called Paul go and preach gospel to Gentiles that they may be saved. That was not Paul's idea, that was from God's command or order. Paul have to take God's task and DO God's task in his duty. It speaks of Paul's job.

2. Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him."

Does, 'the dispensation of the fulness of times' suggest that it speaking of different times of different plans?

No. This verse is clearly talking about administration. It speaks of Christ's power. Christ controls everything both in heaven and earth in his authority, because Christ is our King.

This verse have do nothing with premillennialism doctrine. It deals about Christ's authority.

Also, Paul's point was, Christ have the authority to order Pal to do the duty to obey Christ's command of His will.

3. Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"

This verse doesn't suggest the the grace of God was brought down to Paul as called, "Pauline Epistles" as it is different teaching or applicatiion as it distinction from the four gospels(Matthew-John). But, it rathers talking about the DUTY of task which was given to Paul from God by through His Will.

Notice Eph. 3:7 says, "Whereof I was made a minister according to the gift of the grace of God GIVEN unto me by the effectual working of his power." Paul's point was, he was called by God to be a servant, to obey His call, as Paul took responsible to do task or duty to fulfill God's call.

This verse have do nothing with different plans of different salvations or different ages of different salvations. Rather, this verse talking about God called Paul to do the duty to spreading the gospel to Gentiles to become saved.

4. Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am MADE a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is GIVEN TO me for you, to fulfil the word of God."

This verse tells us, that Paul was called to become minister(servant) of God by given the duty of task to Paul from God, to obey God's Will.

This has do nothing with different times of different plans of salvations. Rather, this verse talks about Paul was called by God, to become servant, to do the task as duty to fulfill God's Will.

Also, I would like to say something on Col. 1:26.

I am sure that many disps use Col.1:26 to prove that it is support of dispensationalism doctrine.

Col. 1:26 says, "Even the 'mystery' which hath been 'HID' from ages and from generations, but 'NOW' is made manifest to his saints."

Disps would saying of Col. 1:26: "This verse prove that the gospel was not yet declare to the world in the Old Testament period, so, the grace of salvation was not yet come upon the saints in the O.T. period. Therefore, this verse tells us, God have different or new plan for the N.T. saints that O.T. saints doesn't have it."

I want to explain what Col. 1:26 talking about. 'Mystery' which speak of Calvary and the covenant, that these were mystery to the saints during O.T. period. During O.T. period, saints probably were not understanding God's plan of salvation. Because the prophets told Jews to use high priests to do sacrifices and offerings to forgive people's sins through the blood often and often times. They have no idea why they have to use high priests to do make sacrifices and offerings to atonement their sins. These sacrifices and offerings were 'shadow of things' which speak of Jesus Christ on cross - Heb. 10:1.

'Mystery' of Col. 1:26 seems suggest of different salvation for O.T. saints as different as we as N.T. saints have. But, it speaks of God's plan during O.T. period that saints were not understand. When Christ came to earth and made sacrifice on the cross. NOW the mystery of gospel is make revealed or shown(manifest) to us both Jews and Gentiles over the world that we understand the GOSPEL of salvation.

I better stop this post. It already long. I better another post. To be continued.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

To be continued.

Col. 1:26 doesn't suggest that, there is a different plan of salvation between O.T. saints and N.T. saints. But rather it speaks of progessive revelation throughout times to make us(saints) understand of God's Plan of salvation - JESUS CHRIST.

Bible is all about Jesus Christ - one same plan of salvation.

Bible doesn't teaching us that there are seven ages of dispensation time.

Bible teaching us that there is the only one plan of same salvation throughout all ages by only the FAITH on Jesus Christ. All O.T. saints were saved by through their faith on Jesus Christ. same as we are saved by our faith on jesus Christ. No difference. Also, Bible teaching us, there are only two classes or groups of the world- believers and unbelievers, that's plain. Bible teaches us, God only have ONE family, either Jew or Gentile whosoever have faith on Jesus Christ only. They are the same boat. No difference.

And lastly,

Nowhere in the New Testament suggest a verse say that Christ did offer an earthly Messianic Kingdom to the Jews only.

Matt. 21:43- Christ told Jews that, the kingdom of God shall taken away from them, and given it to a nation bringing forth the fruits. 'Nation' speaks of Gentiles.

This vers eis clearly support Romans 11:24-25 citied that unbelieving Jews were cut off from the Olive Tree, God grafted wild branches(Gentiles) into Olive Tree, and join with believing Jews, they become into ONE tree together. Therefore, Gentiles are now part of commonwealth of Israel (Eph. 2:12) and 2 Peter 2:9 -'an holy nation'.


***be careful***, Christ doesn't saying "nation" of Matthew 21:43 which speak of future physical or [/B]earthly[/B] nation. Rather, He spoken of spiritual nation.

Conclusion:

Word- 'dispensation' find 4 times in the New Testament is not in Greek translation. It is in Greel word means 'steward'. I wish English Bible should better saying of:

1 Cor. 9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a task of the gospel of the gospel is committed unto me."

Ephesians 1:10 "That in the administration of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"

Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have heard of the calling of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward."

Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the calling of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God."

So, these would make easier for us to understand what Paul was talking about. Being avoid misunderstanding on English Bible as KJV.

I do support KJV 100%, but I am not "KJV Onlyism". Rather I depend on Greek, because 1611 A.V. was translated come from Greek. We have to be careful, do not always depend on English version all times, unless we have to looking on Greek words first before English versions for the true correct words with definition.

These 4 verses have do NOTHING with dispensationalism doctrine, you should be aware of. These are talking about God's calling upon Paul to DO the task to fulfill God's Will.

Understand clear?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Ed,

I think I agree with you regarding the existence of a millennial reign, of Christ's rule now, and Christ's rule for eternity. But I disagree that Jesus actually referred to them as three "different" kingdoms. Jesus always referred to the kingdom of God in a singular, specific manner, i.e "THE Kingdom of God" NOT "A kingdom of God".

I also disagree with most dispensationalists, regarding the parameters of the millennial reign. We as the Church, are not a separate entity. We are "grafted into" Israel, "Seed of Abraham" and "children of the promise". Everything inherited by ethnic Israel (those who are of "True Israel") will also be inherited by us, with no distinction.

Where people go wrong is trying to "Replace" Israel with the Church (Covenant theology), or to "Distinguish" them as two completely separate bodies (dispensational theology). Neither is true. Rather, God has, and has always had, ONE ever increasing and expanding people, which is called BOTH "Israel" and the "ekklesia"(Church), but which is the same exact thing, and always has been.

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,

(Not everyone who is ethnically descended from Israel is of TRUE Israel)


Rom 9:7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."

(Not everyone who is a part of True Israel is actually a blood descendant)

Rom 9:8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

(The boundary of those called "Children of the Promise" {Israel}, is not, and has NEVER been drawn at ethnical or "fleshly" lines; members of Israel are such by faith)

 

What, exactly is this post in reference to? Can you point to a single verse someone has quoted which has "kai" in it, and demonstrate how that would support a particular eschatological conclusion?

 

"Dispensation" is just the means to describe a period of time when things are different than the time before them or after them,

The OT and NT are good examples.

Dispensations can be a large period of time covering thousands of years, or short periods, such as the 40 years in the wilderness.

Dispensation is simply the means to reference a specific period of time.

Yet, when dispensation is mentioned, it's denied as being unscriptural before any period of time referenced is mentioned.

I don't believe they understand the definition of "Dispensation".

Much is made about the church being "graffed in" with the Jews/their Kingdom,

but the Jews will have to be "BORN AGAIN" to get into the "Church kingdom".

Scripture must be viewed/interpreted from "Both sides" to have a complete understanding of it.