Three types of people?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    We know we categorize people as the saved and lost. I suggest it might be more correct to have the natural and spiritual as two categories with the spiritual having two sub groups as saved and lost. We know the saved or redeemed. We know the lost must have an understanding of spiritual in order to reject salvation which the natural man does not have.

    1Co 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    Perhaps the natural man is without a soul
    Any response?
     
  2. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sure: you are creating a false dichotomy. Perhaps you are trying to once again equate demons and Angels with men, but that is never done in Scripture. Perhaps you are trying to create two "spiritual" groups among men, and that is never done either.

    There are two groups, saved and unsaved, natural and spiritual.

    The verse you present shows that.


    God bless.
     
  3. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    That will be different thread

    What do we do with those then who have not ever heard of Jews or Jesus, like my ancestors long ago?
    Did God put them here in a far away place and a time to never hear of Him and still send send them to hell?

    Do you think I don't know the teaching? I am question the reasoning?

    Does one have to HAVE the Holy Spirit( spiritual things) in order to GET the Holy Spirit ?
     
  4. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Why?

    The same thing we do with those who had not heard of Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. Paul teaches that God reveals His will to men in three primary ways:

    1. The testimony of Creation, meaning that Creation itself demands that there be a Supreme Being Who created the universe;
    2. The internal witness of God whereby men have the works of the Law (God's will essentially) written on their hearts and can therefore perform the works of the Law (Romans 2:12-16);
    3. Direct revelation, which speaks of God speaking directly to men (as in the cases of Adam, Cain, Noah, Abraham, and Moses), speaking to men through men (as in the case of Noah, Moses, and the Prophets), God speaking to men through His Word, and God speaking directly to the hearts of men as He does today through the convicting Ministry of the Comforter.

    The Old Testament Saints were not made perfect, as explained before, because when they lived they had only animal sacrifice (and there were exceptions for the poor for other items being used, such as flour) to obtain atonement and remission of sins through. When they died, they were not able to go into the presence of God in Heaven, but had to abide in Hades until Christ made atonement for their sin.

    The point being this: God still holds men accountable for that which has been revealed to them, so despite not having heard the Gospel and thus able to be reconciled to God, they can still be obedient to the revelation we are sure that a Just God would grant them. So just as the Old Testament Saint received grace from God, not having the penalty for sin exacted on them when they died, so too those outside the sphere of the Gospel will also be shown grace and be provided with enough revelation to either be justified (and this in a temporal sense, not an eternal), or remain in the state of separation and condemnation they were born into.


    No. God shows greater mercy than man can imagine. He has consistently judged men based on what they do know, not what they don't know. And just as Paul points out, no man will have an excuse:


    Romans 1:18-21
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

    19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.



    If they obey the revelation provided to them, they will likely stand when they are judged:


    Romans 2:12-16
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

    13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

    14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

    15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

    16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.



    Then you should make that clear.

    ;)


    "Having the Holy Spirit" is not "spiritual things."

    One receives the Spirit of God through no effort on their part, except to respond to the Ministry of the Comforter when He convicts one of sin (that we are sinners and separated from God by it), righteousness (that Christ is righteous and we are not), and judgment (that we are destined for Hell because of our sin).

    This usually takes place when the Gospel is being ministered to the heart. The Holy Spirit enlightens the natural mind to the truth of what they are hearing, the sinner comes under conviction, and turns to Christ, believing that He died to take upon Himself the penalty we are sure we deserve, which is Eternal Separation.

    While the term "spirit" is used in a number of different contexts, such as having a spirit of fear, the spirit of men, that demons are spirits, and the Holy Spirit, the simple truth to understand is that all men (with the exception of Jesus Christ) are conceived and born separated from God, not having the Spirit, and condemned because of that condition. They have nothing in them that would lead to God giving them of His Spirit, though God has consistently filled natural men with His Spirit (in the Old Testament) for the purpose of ministry.

    And that is the beauty of the Gospel, LoDebar, God gives salvation to men as a gift. And it is because we are in such dire straits that we need Him to intervene.


    God bless.
     
  5. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    This is clear:
    1Jo 5:12
    He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not theSon of God hath not life.

    Heb 9:27
    And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

    We know of many in history

    Are you suggesting another way for salvation?

    We know :
    1Co 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    The natural man cannot learn "things of the spirit of God"

    Faith is a gift , salvation is a choice, We are given the opportunity to act through faith to decide to accept the pardon or not


    You do not realize what these verses mean. Why did you include these now?

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

    It suggests pre creation existance "when they knew God" When did the lost know God?
     
  6. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, simply distinguishing between the justification of men in a temporal perspective as opposed to Eternal Redemption which is accomplished only by and through Christ, as the Bible teaches.


    Sorry, no.

    Those in view are the men "from the creation of the world."

    Basically God created the world, instructed Adam face to face, and we are not told how He instructed men after the Fall, we just see Him interacting with Cain and Noah. However, based on the basic principle of instruction of parents to children, we can assume that even if God never spoke to another person, the parents (beginning with Cain and Seth) would have been responsible to instruct their children in God's will.

    So it is not I that am not realizing what the verses mean.

    And can I suggest to you, my friend, that you are never going to be able to give Scriptural support for the pre-existance of man's spirits? If you want to embrace such nonsense, just go ahead and do it, without dragging what Scripture teaches through the mud through wresting.

    Have a blessed day, LoDebar.


    God bless.
     
  7. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The three types of man has nothing to do with pre existence .
    You brought it up. You also brought up examples of pre existence
    That is funny, You did it and suggested I was doing it

    But your answer to when the lost knew God is...? from the creation of the world?
    The knew God then , but yet now are lost? Is that what you are saying?



    Back to 3 types, you agree Jesus is the only way of Salvation, and those who do not have Jesus are lost? You also agree some throughout history are not given the chance to hear of Jesus . Instruction to live is not repentance Jesus.

    1Cor 2 14 suggest some do not or are not capable of understanding spiritual things.Could these be the ones who have not heard?
    Or are you a different way to get the Heaven?
     
  8. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Sorry, no, I simply identified both possibilities of your thread as a false dichotomy:


    You said...

    There is no such thing as a person who is lost also being "spiritual." That is what Paul makes clear.


    "Lost" and "natural" are equivalents.

    The natural man is enlightened to the truth through the MInistry of the Comforter. It is at that time He is ministering to the natural mind that the natural man can understand the spiritual things of God. This is done for the purpose of bringing them to Salvation in Christ.

    Men do nothing, and can do nothing to come to understand the Gospel and thus be saved.


    Not hardly. You are again imposing into what is given you something that is not there. You are welcome to post what you think suggests pre-existence, and I will explain why you are misunderstanding it, lol.


    Sorry, no, just covering my bases due to the vague nature of the OP.


    Did you read the post?



    Note v.19-20: God has shown it to them. From the Creation of the world the invisible things of God are clearly seen.

    All of this post-dates Creation, and refers to what God has revealed to men after He created them.


    "Knowing" God is not to be viewed as being saved. What is in view is the revelation God provided which they were aware of.

    Men were not eternally "saved" until Christ died on the Cross and made atonement for the sins of the Old Testament Saint, as I have tried to explain to you before. If you would just come to understand that one point it would save you a lot of time in trying to figure out things that have no relevance to Scripture.


    You mean back to two types.

    ;)


    Continued...
     
  9. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Correct.

    But, we have to consider that no man prior to Pentecost had the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ revealed to them. The Gospel has been progressively revealed over time, beginning in Genesis 3, and slowly more information being given. Understanding of that information was withheld from men until the time appointed by God:


    Romans 16:25-26
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

    26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:



    So while we can call men who had general faith in God "saved," we do not confuse that with the Eternal Redemption they received retroactively when Christ died on the Cross. It was at this time that the Old Testament Saints were made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins, and liberated from Sheol/Hades to go to be with God in Heaven:


    Hebrews 9:12-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.



    "Testament" here is better translated Covenant, because that is what the Writer is speaking about. We are under the New Covenant, which has the Sacrifice of Christ, not under the Covenant of Law, which, like all Ages before it did, had animal sacrifice for the remission of sins.

    The Old Testament Saint was "saved" by grace through faith, but, was not eternally redeemed because Christ had not died in their stead, rose again, returned to Heaven, and sent the eternally indwelling Spirit of Truth and Grace.


    None of the Old Testament Saints did.

    Some of them knew of Messiah coming, but not until Moses' day and forward. And even the Disciples of Christ did not have the Mystery of the Gopsel revealed to them. That is why they forsook Christ when He was taken.


    This is true, but, men are justified or condemned according to their response to God's instruction.

    Just as Adam was. Just as Noah was. Just as Abraham was. Just as Job was.


    Spiritual things of God have always been revealed to men by God. Scripture consistently teaches that.

    1 Corinthians 2 teaches that the Gospel of Christ was the Hidden Wisdom of God, and that no man knew the Gospel prior to the Spirit revealing this knowledge. the "we" in that passage speaks of those made perfect, born again believers who are not natural because they have had the truth of the Gospel revealed to them by the Spirit of God, Who is the Comforter.


    Continued...
     
  10. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, not at all. Men will only be in Heaven based on Christ's offering of Himself. While the Old Testament Saint was not privy to Who Christ was and what He would do, they still responded to the Son of God in regards to the "instruction" He gave them beginning with Adam in the Garden.

    In this Age, and the one to follow, there is no such "winking at sin," because God is revealing the truth directly to the heart of the natural man, and when he rejects it, he will be under far greater condemnation than those who rejected previously revealed truth:


    Hebrews 10:26-29
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



    "Moses' Law" is a reference to the Covenant of Law, and those who rejected it were put to death physically.

    There will be sorer punishment for those who...

    1. Reject Jesus Christ;
    2. Reject His Sacrifice;
    3. Reject His Covenant;
    4. Reject the ministry of the Spirit (the Comforter, Who convicts the unbeliever of sin, righteousness, and judgement).

    Christ is the only means of Eternal Salvation.


    God bless.
     
  11. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    If I can get to Heaven without knowing Christ, you decrease Christ death to man's actions
     
  12. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Roman's 1 is not about preexistance
     
  13. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You don't pay very much attention to those you speak with, do you LoDebar.

    I have made it more than clear on more than one occasion that men come to know Christ in a saving relationship through the Ministry of the Comforter.



    The fact is you can't get to Heaven without knowing Christ, because you have been exposed to the Gospel of Jesus Christ. You are obligated to accept the truth or reject it, whereas someone who has not heard the Gospel remains under the standard that has been in place since the world began. Many are going to see that as heretical, but, I can support that view from Scripture. It is just a basic principle. And it is because people reject the distinction between those who were "saved" in the Old Testament and those being saved today, and that Eternal Redemption was retroactive for the Old Testament Saint...that they are not able to understand this issue.

    Okay, have to get going, hope you have a blessed day.


    God bless.
     
  14. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    How does the natural man become able to understand spiritual things in order to make a decision to reject God?

    1Co 2:12
    Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
    1Co 2:13ΒΆ
    Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
    1Co 2:14
    But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned

    Is this a past statement, saying the natural man HAS not receive the spiritual things offered or is not ever capable of spiritual things?
     
  15. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Never said it was, lol.

    Reread the post and try to understand it.


    God bless.
     
  16. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Read the posts, LoDebar, I have already addressed that.


    John 16:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;





    God bless.
     
  17. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    You don't pay very much attention to those you speak with, do you LoDebar.

    I have trouble with ramblings or unrelated points.

    You keep saying the same unrelated statements. Let me help by being specific.

    My Cherokee ancestor born at the time of Moses could not hear of Hebrews or Jesus, God choose the time and place, Without Jesus, What is his status?
     
  18. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I said it was but it is not related to the subject
     
  19. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    This is not even on the subject, The natural man cannot even comprehend spiritual things much less reject HIM
     
  20. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    A natural man is spiritually color blind. He cannot have any spiritual consideration