Three types of people?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by loDebar, Mar 6, 2018.

  1. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It's very simple: the Holy Spirit enlightens the natural man to the truth of the Gospel, and it is at that time the natural man can respond to the Gospel.


    God bless.
     
  2. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    He can when God opens his eyes to the truth.

    That is what this...

    John 16:7-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    Is talking about.

    The Comforter is the Spirit God promised to send in the Old Testament, and here we see that He brings conviction to those who do not believe (v.9).

    "Color" has nothing to do with it, lol.


    God bless.
     
  3. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It is "on the subject," both because you asked a direct question and secondly because you need to understand how it is you are creating a false dichotomy concerning man.

    This is what you said:

    This is from the OP (opening post):

    There is no "two sub groups of saved and lost," one is either saved...or lost. Natural...or spiritual.

    And again I would remind you that a man being spiritual doesn't refer to him having a spirit, it deals with him being born again.

    Men are born dead despite the fact they have a physically living body and a spirit, and the only way they obtain spiritual life is through faith in Christ:


    John 6:47-53
    King James Version (KJV)

    47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

    48 I am that bread of life.

    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.



    Christ contrasts Himself with the provision of the Old Testament, manna. He state "I am the True Bread," and contrasted with eating manna is eating of the flesh and drinking of the blood (death) of Christ (which He defines in the next verse). The "fathers" ate of manna, and are dead. Those who eat of the True Bread will live forever:


    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    As I said, Christ defines the "True Bread" as His flesh, which is of course a reference to His offering of Himself on the Cross.

    But...


    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?



    ...because the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ was not being revealed to men yet, they did not understand.


    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



    Christ makes it clear that unless one eats of His flesh, and drinks of His Blood...they do not have life.

    And when we receive Christ, we are indwelt by God, and in that way...receive life. We become alive when we were once dead:


    Ephesians 2:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;


    Colossians 2:13
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;



    So we do not impose into the natural man the concept of life, or of being spiritually alive.

    They are dead.


    God bless.
     
  4. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    To show that natural men can be held accountable for having known the truth yet rejecting it I give you:


    2 Peter 2:20-22
    King James Version (KJV)

    20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

    21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

    22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.



    Do not, as many do, mistake these for born again Christians, because they are identified as false teachers and the New Testament equivalent of false prophets in the Old Testament, who were not believers either:


    2 Peter 2
    King James Version (KJV)

    2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


    And if you read this chapter, and Jude, you will see they were always destined for Hell.

    Yet they had received the truth, and turned from it.


    Another instance of those who have received the truth is seen in the passage we looked at earlier:



    Hebrews 10:26-29
    King James Version (KJV)


    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



    Note that they have "done despite unto the Spirit of Grace," or in other words, rejected the ministry of God in revealing the truth to them.

    They have received the truth, but rejected it, and their punishment will be worse than those who rejected the Covenant of Law.

    Again, this passage is thought by many to refer to born again Christians, but, the fact is, those who are born again are made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins forever, and the Writer uses the identical statement to show those sanctified by the blood of Christ need not have sacrifice offered up for their sins ever...


    Hebrews 10:15-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

    16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

    17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.



    Two different contexts between the two, and two different meanings:


    Hebrews 10:26
    King James Version (KJV)

    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,



    There is no more sacrifice for those made perfect, and there is no more sacrifice for those who reject the only sacrifice by which they can be saved.

    So yes, the natural man can be enlightened, you are simply confusing that with the concept that natural man has within his own capacity the ability to understand the spritiual things of God, and thereby be saved.

    That is what Paul is stating is not possible.

    Really leaving this time, so again...have a blessed day.


    God bless.
     
  5. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    so off subject shows you do not understand the significance of the questions, just vain ramblings
     
  6. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Let me ask you, LoDebar, are you speaking of yourself when you say...



    ...?

    If so, I would like to know how it is you see direct and comprehensive answers to your own questions as...



    Never mind, don't answer, my sides are already hurting...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  7. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    Does God take a natural man and insert the ability to comprehend spiritual things in order to be convicted?
     
  8. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    you seem to have a wide variety of comments and verses posted irregardless of the subject in most threads.
     
  9. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Show one thing that is not relevant to the discussion and we will talk about it.

    It is like you saying...

    ...when in fact everything is in direct response to your questions and not only relevant to the discussion, but the very issues which you need to understand so you don't continue to ask questions that are quite unbiblical.

    But you are right, I do have a lot of comments, and sometimes, LoDebar, and some of them are meant as a goad, to stir you into discussion, and hopefully get you to consider some of the points being raised to you.


    God bless.
     
  10. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    I will try and pose specific questions and comments
     
  11. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I wouldn't call it "inserting," which might imply those being convicted retain that understanding. Think of it like being in a dark cave and there is no light. Someone comes along and flips on a lighter, and you are able at that time to navigate the cave. When the lighter is on, you can see clearly, but, when it goes off, you are in the same state you were before he gave you light. When the conviction arises through His Ministry, you can at that time understand what He is showing you to be true. And like our cave scenario, you might be able to remember a little of what you saw and continue to walk a few more steps in the darkness, but, eventually, if our guy with the lighter left off giving you light, your memory is only going to take you so far.

    This...


    2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;



    ...and this...


    2 Thessalonians 2:10-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

    11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

    12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.



    ...have a context dealing with the Tribulation, but, it shows that those who will be damned did not obey the Gospel (and you have to hear the Gospel not to obey it), received not the love of the truth, and believed not the truth.

    This shows they received the Gospel and rejected it.

    And in the Tribulation, those who have done these things will be given strong delusion, and they will believe the lie, which centers on the Antichrist.


    God bless.
     
  12. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    The verse says they cannot so were they ever capable of spiritual things? If they were never capable then they are 3 types because some receive spiritual things , some consider and reject and if these never were capable , a third type.

    If a third type, them it may explain those who have not heard were not condemned were not "lost"
     
  13. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Its not that so much, its what you post that is the issue. No-one demands great posting to talk here, though some need encouragement to get better, which is accomplished over time. Its a learning process, and I want to help you any way I can, whether it is Doctrinal, or simply helping you better know the functions of the Forum.

    You are actually doing a lot better than when we first started talking. One thing that is important, though, is making sure your antagonist (and this term doesn't have to carry a negative connotation) knows you have responded to him/her, and that is easily accomplished by scrolling over what you want to quote and highlighting it, and when you do that a prompt will show up at the bottom, QUOTE or REPLY. If you hit Quote it will store what you highlighted until you go to the bottom of the page where it says REPLY, and you hit on INSERT QUOTES. They will pop up and you hit INSERT.

    If you hit REPLY it will immediately throw what they said in the response box and you can respond to the quote.

    Some people don't do that because they don't want the person to know they said something, which is poor forum etiquette and in my view very questionable.


    God bless.
     
  14. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Again, this speaks of one type of the two, those who are natural, and by that are what we call lost. His point is addressing man in his natural condition, which is a state of separation from God. Spiritual things are revealed to man by the Spirit, always. It is always God that reveals to man those things He deems men should know:


    1 Corinthians 2:9-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



    Verse 9 is a quotation from Isaiah 64. Where again we see that this is said to be the case since the beginning of the world. The context of this passage is the Gospel of Christ, which is the Hidden Wisdom of God. So primarily what he is saying is "No man has known since the beginning of the world, but...God has revealed it to us (those made perfect)"

    He then goes on to clarify that this is how men understand spiritual things, by God revealing them to men.

    And he shows what man can understand in his own spirit...


    11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.



    "No man knows the things of God except that He show them."


    12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.


    Again, what we know (which is spiritual) is revealed to us by the Spirit we have received, which is a reference to the Comforter and the eternal indwelling we receive when we are saved.

    Again, only two types.


    They were lost. That is just basic to what Scripture teaches concerning natural man. And again, all men receive revelation from God and are judged based on their response to it. Like the Gentiles I showed you in Romans 2, who performed the works of the Law written on their hearts, and the Jews, who did not perform the works of the Law as revealed in Holy Scripture, both received revelation by which they will be judged.

    Christ said...

    John 3:18
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.



    God bless.
     
  15. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    it is saying things about the natural man not talking to him. He is not capable of spiritual things ever ?

    '
     
  16. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Never.

    Not unless God enlightens his mind:


    Romans 3:10-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

    11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

    12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

    13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:

    14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:

    15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:

    16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:

    17 And the way of peace have they not known:

    18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.



    Have to get going, hope you all have a blessed night.


    God bless.
     
  17. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    well, Darrell that has been my point from the beginning, If a human cannot ever know spiritual things, like conviction, If God never enlightens his mind , how could he ever be saved?
     
  18. Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    But we don't see a concept of humans "cannot ever know spiritual things," LoDebar. The issue is they cannot know spiritual things unless they are revealed to them by God.

    That is quite different from the false doctrine of free will which teaches that men can hear the spiritual things of God, analyze them in their natural minds, and choose to be in relationship with God.

    Nor are men regenerated in order to understand the spiritual things of God, it is simply a matter that God has always been the One to initiate relationship with men, and has given them that which they needed to know.


    1 John 4:19
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 We love him, because he first loved us.



    God bless.
     
  19. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    #36 you said Unless enlightened spiritually inadequate.



    And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God (2 Corinthians 4:3,4).
     
  20. loDebar Well-Known Member

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    if the veiling is permanent and the understanding of spiritual things never able to be known. God made or keeps them that way, There is a third type of person, like the animals .