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Tithing time

Discussion in '2004 Archive' started by amixedupmom, Jul 26, 2004.

  1. Terry_Herrington

    Terry_Herrington New Member

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    both

    sometimes
     
  2. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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    Actually, I start my Sabbath at 6:00 on Saturday.

    "My Sabbath"? Isnt it Gods Sabbath? The same one that Jesus kept on Saturday? Where was it changed in the Bible, or dispensation given to change it? Assuming that it is still to be kept as a part of the law today.

    The fulfillment of this act (physical circumcision, was fulfilled in Christ, spiritually). Can you show me, from scripture, where the tithe was removed by Christ or fulfilled in Christ?

    Paul has shown us clearly what has been retained, Tithing was not.

    Are you wanting this verse to imply that tithing is a burdon?

    All of the Jewish law is a burden, hence why Jesus came and relieved us of it.

    Or that if he wanted it to end, he would have said so?
    </font>[/QUOTE]Paul already did not include it in the list of Jewish laws that he wanted Gentiles to keep on with. Paul says clearly what the only Jewish laws are that are to be kept by the Gentiles. Tithing not being one of them.

    Tithing is 3 Tithes of 10% in the Old Testament, it is not instructed to do this in the New Testament, the giving is that all of the church people had possesions in common and lived in community. They gave all that they had to the church. A little different to the Capatalist structure of most churches today. The fact that churches beat up on people to give them money is one of the main reasons for the empty seats there. If they followed the example in the Bible and gave that everyone who was in need in the church was looked after, the church would grow accordingly. Instead churches are to keen to turn people away that dont have health coverage instead of helping them in their time of need. How many people have been turned away from churches because the church is to keen on making money and being into materialism? Too many.

    What is great is the fact that the internet has allowed people to have a go back at the False Teachers that teach tithing. There are some great websites that are helping people be set free from selective legalism of churches.

    Show me one New Testament Scripture where a 10% Gross Tithe is required.

    Also, why does the church only ask for a 10% Tithe, when the Old Testament manner of Tithing is 3 Tithes of 30 percent? Are the Worldwide Church of God then the only group correct as they teach this?
     
  3. amixedupmom

    amixedupmom Guest

    I tithe my time, what I can spare, I cook food for the pastor, i've donated anything that I have that they might need. The point of this is to get everyone to think, Money is money sure you should give it if you wish to. But, and a BIG BUT, how much money would the church save by having a few volenteers? How much would the Pastor's work load be lightened by a member of the church taking care of a few odds and ends. Afterall it is OUR church too, why not have a personal stake in it?

    This isn't about the money , This is about you.
     
  4. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    I'm rather glad you brought that up, because I seldom tell of my experience with this passage unless someone else refers to it.

    God told Israel to "Test me in this." Since there are so many who think this applies to Christians and money, not just Jews suppporting their temple keepers with their crops and livestock, I did put God to the test, as He said. The result: financial balance only falls and the correlation coefficient falls-- this on comparing when I give 10% or greater against giving less than that amount. So what they [you] claim this will show is not upheld.

    But I know one like you would have an emotionalistic need to see it differently. Therefore I will state your expected replies in general right here ... "You don't see ALL the different ways in which God has blessed you" .. "You are doing this 'test' without faith, so you will not be blessed" ... "God did not mean to literally test Him because scripture says otherwise to not put him to a test."

    But that's enough presuming your responses. I will answer these or any other points, if you desire, and neither I nor my computer croaks.
     
  5. jle

    jle New Member

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    Why is this and eother / or discussion? It should be all believers doing both.
     
  6. jle

    jle New Member

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    I'm rather glad you brought that up, because I seldom tell of my experience with this passage unless someone else refers to it.

    God told Israel to "Test me in this." Since there are so many who think this applies to Christians and money, not just Jews suppporting their temple keepers with their crops and livestock, I did put God to the test, as He said. The result: financial balance only falls and the correlation coefficient falls-- this on comparing when I give 10% or greater against giving less than that amount. So what they [you] claim this will show is not upheld.

    But I know one like you would have an emotionalistic need to see it differently. Therefore I will state your expected replies in general right here ... "You don't see ALL the different ways in which God has blessed you" .. "You are doing this 'test' without faith, so you will not be blessed" ... "God did not mean to literally test Him because scripture says otherwise to not put him to a test."

    But that's enough presuming your responses. I will answer these or any other points, if you desire, and neither I nor my computer croaks.
    </font>[/QUOTE]ctually, I would not have made any of the three replies you stated. I think they are moot to the truth on the test God command.

    My response would be...

    Who are we as people (fallen and saved) to dictate how God responds to our giving? Now we do see clearly, IMO, in vv's 11-12 specfically how God will respond. Is He limited to these responses? I don't think so. But we can count on these, at least.
     
  7. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Who are we as people (fallen and saved) to dictate how God responds to our giving?

    Nobody; but who is God himself to "dictate" what he said he would do?

    Now we do see clearly, IMO, in vv's 11-12 specfically how God will respond. Is He limited to these responses?

    As I related, there was no such response.

    Is He limited to these responses? I don't think so. But we can count on these, at least.

    No; tested and disproved.
     
  8. jle

    jle New Member

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    jle: 1 - God is God and I wouod not say what he promises is Him dictating to Himself but rather informing us of what He will do when we are obedient in our tithe.

    2 - The question here is not -- what was God's response to His promise but -- What was our response to God's command.

    It is not hard to understand the people of God did not obey... therefor... God was not bound to His word. Matter of fact, not long after this, He stopped communicating for 400 years.

    3 - How is it you see God was supposed to answer you in response to your tithe? I ask since there must be something specific HE did not do, since you disproved His test.

    Was God lying?

    Is the scripture wrong?

    Is the scripture outdated?

    I would really like to hear your repsonse.

    I have tested God here and HE has been faithful to HIS promise, even more than expected.
     
  9. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    The former most definitely is the question, and it was you who introduced the dilemma with this previous quote: "What a sad way to miss the fuller blessings of God. The monor prophet, did not give a law but a standard for God's children to follow. - Malachi 3:10."

    3 - How is it you see God was supposed to answer you in response to your tithe? I ask since there must be something specific HE did not do, since you disproved His test.

    What HE did not do was what so many people I have heard from say he will do-- namely, that is you give your tithe and above, you will have more money than if you kept it for yourself. THAT is really what I was testing, and which proved untrue. So the result means inevitably at least one of the following: 1)the tithe--&gt;blessing concept of Malachi 3 does not apply to money, but agricultural produce, as was directly referenced, 2)the tithe--&gt;blessing concept of Malachi 3 does not apply to NT Christians, as it was said to Israel and temple worship, not Christians with no similar temple structure, as well as the promise not being repeated in the NT, or 3)the tithe--&gt;blessing of Malachi 3 is not true.

    Was God lying?

    Not that I know of. How about you?-- have you tithed and received a blessing which is too large to be contained?

    Is the scripture wrong?

    No; my conclusion is that is not applicable to NT Christians or to a medium of commerce instead of the commodities. I don't think it is applicable to either.

    Is the scripture outdated?

    Many scriptures are certainly superseded(or do you smear blood on your door at Passover and refuse to eat pork and shellfish?).

    I would really like to hear your repsonse.

    You just read them, if you didn't skip.

    I have tested God here and HE has been faithful to HIS promise, even more than expected.

    So, describe how.
     
  10. jle

    jle New Member

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    Alcott: What HE did not do was what so many people I have heard from say he will do-- namely, that is you give your tithe and above, you will have more money than if you kept it for yourself.

    jle: This is where I would part idealogies with you. It matters not what others say God will give, we must look and see what sctipture says HE will give.

    In Malachi 3:10 God says, "If I will not open for you the windows of heaven And pour out for you such blessing That there will not be room enough to receive it.

    jle: No where inthis verse does the "poor out" remark say anything about money.

    In Malachi 3:11 God promise is - And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, So that he will not destroy the fruit of your ground,

    jle: I'll take this blessing from God any day of finances.


    Malachi goes on to say in v. 11 - Nor shall the vine fail to bear fruit for you in the field," Says the Lord of hosts; And all nations will call you blessed, For you will be a delightful land, Says the Lord of hosts.

    To be protected and to be a witness (testimony) is a far greater treasure than a big bank account.
     
  11. jle

    jle New Member

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    jle: Was God lying:

    Alcott: Not that I know of. How about you?-- have you tithed and received a blessing which is too large to be contained?

    jle: Yes. I have received many blessings that are so big they continues to flow out of me because there is not enough room in me to hold it all.

    i.e. health, family all born again, church that loves me as their Pastor,

    jle: Is the scripture wrong?

    Alcott: No; my conclusion is that is not applicable to NT Christians or to a medium of commerce instead of the commodities. I don't think it is applicable to either.

    jle: Is there any part of the OT you would say is applicable to NT Christians?

    jle: Is the scripture outdated?

    Allcott: Many scriptures are certainly superseded(or do you smear blood on your door at Passover and refuse to eat pork and shellfish?).

    There are some things God does once or has others do once.. Let's call them unique miracles, lessons, opportunities. This does not discard their Truth on our lives today any less.

    jle: I would really like to hear your repsonse.

    Alcott: You just read them, if you didn't skip.

    jle: Why would I skip? You know nothing about me, so why would you think in such a way?

    I will respond as soon as I can. I will confess, I do not live and breath BB.com but will keep up with threads I am in, as I can.

    You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Is there anything I can pray for you about?

    jle: I have tested God here and HE has been faithful to HIS promise, even more than expected.

    Alcott: So, describe how.

    jle: I mentioned a few above. I think it is a sad commentary for a believer to test God and expect results different than what He promises the results would be.

    No where in scripture is it stated we will get back out tithe and more if we tithe. If I am missing a sripture reference, please share it.

    What others say you will get back means little if it is not balanced with scripture.

    From my observation, the only ones getting more money are the ones preaching, give it to me and you will get more in return.
     
  12. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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  13. jle

    jle New Member

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    jle: Can you show me where svripture says these things (what you list) are fulfilled in the New Covenant?

    jle: Can you show me where Malachi (the minor prophet) was quoting law? I don't see this as the case.

    jle: I'm not adding anything to Christianity. Scripture, as a whole, speaks clearly for itself. With the same tone, you can not remove aspects of it for Christianity.

    I think, not doing a reference check here due to time restraints, it is Leviticus which speaks of a double tithe (20% - translated). Where do you find 30%?

    It does not have to be taught in the NT to make it a Biblical principle. The OT is still sufficient for such things.
     
  14. Ben W

    Ben W Active Member
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  15. David Mark

    David Mark New Member

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    Isn't it the heart that God looks upon?

    One of the toughest things for me to do, is to ask myself why I do or don't do certain things. Then examine my own answers and motives closely.

    Why do I tithe or
    Why do I not tithe.

    Many times, I have to get away from all the influences of other people. In private with nothing to lose, I ask myself questions like those. Then I try to answer those questions. The honest answers I come up with are the true state of my heart before the Lord. That is the issue I really have to deal with. Not whether I do tithe or don't tithe but why I tithe or why I don't tithe.

    Before men, I find myself lacking and spiritually poor. Much more do I find myself lacking and spiritually poor before the Lord.

    Why I do or don't do something is a much more important issue for me to resolve. As a result, whether you tithe or not is far from being any of my business.

    Dave.
     
  16. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    "Is there any part of the OT you would say is applicable to NT Christians?"

    Yes, those parts thereof which are repeated to Christians in the NT.

    "There are some things God does once or has others do once.. Let's call them unique miracles, lessons, opportunities. This does not discard their Truth on our lives today any less."

    The "lesson" involved is that the agraian Israelites were commanded to tithe their produce to support a complex system of temple worship-- which He later said actually did not accomplish what it was taught and perceived to do (Romans 10:4). So the "opportunities" involved in this system are superseded by what truthfully accomplishes its purpose. If there were "miracles" involved then-- like having agricultural production kept at a high level either because of, or in spite of, the 'natural' elements therein induced-- then without the same lessons and opportunities, there will not be identical miracles.

    "No where in scripture is it stated we will get back out tithe and more if we tithe. If I am missing a sripture reference, please share it."

    The Malachi 3:10,11 passage clearly indicates that is part of, if not all of, the promised blessing. Any other than agricultural blessings, it they are to be included at all, are undefined.

    So answer this question Yes or No.: If 2 households each have an income of $50,000, and the first one gives more than $5000/year to its church, and the second one gives $1500, and their modes of living-- 3-br house, 2 vehicles, same number of kids, average 'tastes', same debts... are virtually identical -- then will the first household simply have $3500 less than the second one?

    And in the above example, will the illnesses, criminal victimizations, and number of friends be essentially the same for both households?

    "You seem to have a chip on your shoulder. Is there anything I can pray for you about?"

    For some salsa to dip that chip in before I eat it.
     
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