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To be raptured?

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Optional, Jul 17, 2002.

  1. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    I don’t read anywhere in the bible where Eaglelives is said to come back riding on a white stallion….

    [14] And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

    Armies - saints - church....get it? [​IMG]

    I bet you think the serpent, in Revelation, is a real snake….

    Real snake....hmmm...where have I heard about a real snake before.....Genesis? :eek:

    Serpent/Satan/snake.....hmmmmm?

    I believe Revelations is both LITERAL & FIGURATIVE! :eek:

    Yep, God could just ZAP it all....surprised He hasn't yet though. Could it be He is trying to prove a point to somebody somewhere & that's why He didn't choose to ZAP the world the first go around (i.e. Great Flood). He didn't have to send His precious Son, either, to save us & die for us. He could've just ZAPPED us. But that's not how He usually chooses to operate, according to my KJV! [​IMG]
     
  2. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    In Revelation 19:14, "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

    I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

    Again, after the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that the supper in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation? (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)

    __________________________________________________

    "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
     
  3. Graceforever

    Graceforever New Member

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    In Revelation 19:14, "heaven" is the 1st heaven, the sky, where Jesus is revealed to the nations, as in Matthew 24:30's "heaven."

    I believe the purpose of the rapture is to gather the resurrected dead and the transformed living (1 Corinthians 15:51-52, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) all together in the sky with Jesus so that we can be judged (Psalms 50:4-5, Mark 13:27) and married (Revelation 19:7) in the clouds, before Armageddon.

    This is why the wedding's consummation isn't announced until immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-14). I believe that after we've been judged and married in the clouds, we'll all get on our white horses, the clouds will part, "heaven" will be "opened" (Revelation 19:11), we'll all descend from the clouds with Jesus (Revelation 19:11-14), Jesus will smite the nations (Revelation 19:15) gathered at Armageddon (Revelation 16:14-16) to fight him (Revelation 19:19), he will defeat them completely (Revelation 19:20) and then land on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:3-4), after which we will have the supper (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that the Bible doesn't show the marriage of the church or the marriage supper happening before or during the tribulation, or in heaven; it doesn't announce the marriage and supper until the 2nd coming, immediately before we descend with Christ at Armageddon (Revelation 19:7-9, 14). "The bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage" (Matthew 25:10).

    Again, after the tribulation, I believe the rapture will gather us into the clouds to be married (Revelation 19:7) before Armageddon. The supper will be on the earth after Armageddon (Revelation 19:9, 17; Isaiah 25:5-9).

    Note that the supper in Isaiah 25:5-9 is spoken of in connection with the same coming in which Jesus "will swallow up death in victory" (Isaiah 25:8); "Then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory" (1 Corinthians 15:54).

    In the pre-trib view, why isn't the Lamb at the marriage of the Lamb (Revelation 19:7) or the supper of the Lamb (Revelation 19:9) at any time we see him during the tribulation? (Revelation 5:6-13; Revelation 6:1; Revelation 7:9-17; Revelation 14:1-4)

    __________________________________________________

    "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

    http://www.geocities.com/postrib
    </font>[/QUOTE]Brethren and sisters, lets be satisfied with our taking part in the first resurrection..... ;)

    I perceive that my participation in this thread is neither fruitful, or up building, so I'll close with these words....

    Though, we have our interpretation differences of certain scriptures, I hope we can all agree with the very core of Christianity.... The death, the burial, and the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ... We are saved by his amazing grace....

    BTW, I really enjoy discussing my differences with eaglelives… I hope you don’t take anything personal… [​IMG] :0

    God bless you all….
     
  4. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Then why even bother telling them to watch?

    Look at Matthew 24:42

    He isn't telling them to watch so that they will know when it happens but to watch because they do not know when it will happen.

    Look at verse 44

    The parables that follow express be ready, be prepared, because you will not know.

    In v 25:10 the virgins that were ready went to the banquet, they were ready but they didn't know when it was going to happen.

    So we are told to watch and be ready. Why?
    Because we do not know when it will happen.

    Look at what Paul said:

    We have already been told it will come as a surprise. It shouldn't surprise us like a thief, not because we will know when it will take place but rather because we will be alert and self controlled and ready.

    We are to watch and be ready, Jesus said it, Paul said it. Know one knows when it will happen, Jesus said it, Paul said it.

    If we can know and plan the day, then there is no reason to watch, it won't happen in an hour when we think not.

    But that isn't what Jesus said:

    You say that Jesus didn't mean that no one would ever know the day or the hour? Then why did He ask them to watch? Why the warning if those who don't know won't be alive to keep watch anyway? Why the warning if those Christians alive at the time will know?

    What do all these verses really mean?

    ~Lorelei
     
  5. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    LOL! I don't take anything personal. (when you know the truth, you don't need to....hee-hee)! LOL! [​IMG] :eek: :D
     
  6. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    Note that in the Bible, "watching" doesn't mean staring up in the sky waiting for something to happen at any moment; it means to stay awake (Matthew 26:38-41).

    "And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation" (Matthew 26:40-41). Here Jesus wasn't asking "Could ye not watch with me for the imminent rapture for one hour?" And he wasn't saying "Watch and pray for the imminent rapture that ye enter not into temptation." He was asking "Could ye not stay awake with me for one hour?" And he was saying "Stay awake and pray, that ye enter not into temptation."

    Jesus made clear we must stay spiritually awake for his coming (Matthew 24:42-48, 25:13; Mark 13:35-36), and that his coming to gather us would not be until after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27). There's no 3rd coming of Christ.

    Compare: "Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe this is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Christ will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise you're saying that as long as we're looking for him he can't possibly come.

    It's possible to know at what time a thief is coming: "Know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready" (Matthew 24:43-44).

    Note that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).
     
  7. Lorelei

    Lorelei <img src ="http://www.amacominc.com/~lorelei/mgsm.

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    Yes, I do realize to watch means to be awake, be ready. And don't worry, I am not off staring into the sky doing nothing! ;) Watching (making sure I am ready) has been my focus, since I don't really know whether it will be pre, mid or post tribulation, my main concern is to be ready no matter when it happens.

    I thank you for your response. That makes some sense now. I will continue to study as time allows. I am sure it will be awhile before I will say yeah or nay to any time frame. I will, however, continue working on being ready!

    ~Lorelei
     
  8. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Posttrib - Hope you realize that just reading your depressing view and pervasive hopelessness is making my point ever clearer! Thanks! [​IMG]

    BTW, hope you won't be unhappy when God saves you "from the wrath through Him" before He pours out the vials of His wrath during the Tribulation. Will look foward to taking a polaroid of your face!

    (Just pulling your chain, friend :eek: )
     
  9. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    "Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (1 Peter 4:12-13).

    "We glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Romans 5:3-4).

    "Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation" (Romans 12:12).

    Note that none of the vials of His wrath are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might patiently endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    [ August 01, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: postrib ]
     
  10. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Post-trib, if you think that Christians are indeed appointed unto wrath, why? Why would Christ ask His bride to go through that? Why would God's wrath be poured out on the Bride???

    Secondly, when do you see the last week of Daniel as occurring, if not during the Tribulation?

    Thirdly, please consider that the Old Testament Pharisees and teachers of the law had totally ignored what we know of as Isaiah 53 in favor of the strong belief that the Messiah would come as a reigning king, conquering the earth immediately. But there was another coming which they did not recognize. In the same way, allow me to suggest that there is a coming you are not recognizing. I think this might be best shown by Paul's response to the Thessalonians when they were so disturbed "by some prophecy, report or letter ... saying that the day of the Lord has already come." If what was being looked forward to was Jesus' reign on earth, why on earth would the church at Thessalonica have been upset? They would have looked forward to time with Jesus here on earth! But they were terribly upset that they had MISSED something! That means whatever it was had come and gone and was over. That was NOT the reign of Christ! What else could it have been except the rapture?

    God uses difficulties to mature and discipline us (Hebrews 12:4-11). He is taking full responsibility for our maturation (Philippians 1:6) and the eventual transformation of each of us into the image of Christ Himself (Romans 8:28-30). There is no place anywhere in Scripture which indicates that any part of the body of Christ is going to have to suffer God's wrath.

    How could we? We are new in Christ! We are loved as children and disciplined as sons. Where does the wrath come in?
     
  11. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Tribulation does not equal wrath. Christians always go through tribulation and chastisement. It is part of our lot on this earth. Only the lost in hell will suffer wrath.

    Ken
     
  12. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    Um, Ken,

    I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues -- last because with them God's wrath is completed.
    Rev. 15:1

    Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go, pour out the seven bowls of God's wrath on the earth."
    Rev. 16:1

    The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath.
    Rev. 16:19

    consider as well

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: "You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath?"
    Matthew 3:7

    Whowever believes in the Son has eternallife, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.
    John 3:36

    They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead -- Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
    1 Thessalonians 1:10

    For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
    1 Thess. 1:9
    (the clear implication here, by the way, is that those who have received their salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ do not suffer wrath, which is referred to as being part of THE Tribulation, which is the subject of the first quotes here.

    And yes, we all go through bits of tribulation. Tribulation with a 'small t' however is radically different from THE Tribulation -- the time of distress unequaled from the beginning of the world until that time and never to be be equalled again.

    A cupcake is not a sheet cake. Eat a cupcake and you can handle the sugar. Eat a sheet cake and you will get sicker than a dog. The hardships we have now, or tribulations if you prefer to call them that, are for our discipline and, in the severe cases such as martyrdom, as a witness to the world. These are nothing compared to THE Tribulation which is to come on the whole world.
     
  13. tyndale1946

    tyndale1946 Well-Known Member
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    I don't believe in a rapture... but in "THE RESURRECTION" ... Brother Glen :D
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Helen,

    Okay, we agree that the lost will suffer the wrath of God.

    1) How do you arrive at your implication that God's wrath is part of THE TRIBULATION?

    2) How do you arrive at your implication that there is a THE TRIBULATION that is distinct from "ordinary" tribulation?

    Thanks.

    Ken
     
  15. Kiffin

    Kiffin New Member

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    Helen stated,

    I doubt if the Christians in Sudan who are being crucified at this time would agree with you. I think ultimately is how one defines the Tribulation is the question. Christians throughout history have been burned alive, crucified, beheaded, burned alive, skinned alive etc.. and I doubt if there was going to be a 7 year Tribulation that the AntiChrist could match that. The belief of many including myself is that the 1,260 days of Tribulation is symbolic of most of the Church age. In other words, we are in the Tribulation now when the great Serpent and the Spirit of AntiChrist wages war against the Bride who will ultimately endure and overcome the wrath of Satan proclaiming the Gospel until Christ returns.

    [ August 01, 2002, 07:59 PM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]
     
  16. postrib

    postrib New Member

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    I believe "a great multitude, which no man could number" of us Christians will be in the great tribulation (Revelation 7:9, 14) for the same reasons Christians have always gone through "much tribulation." "Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22). Note that the Greek word for "much" in Acts 14:22 is translated 59 times in the New Testament as "great." "And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience" (Romans 5:3). "That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation" (1 Thessalonians 3:3-4).

    During the coming great tribulation the Lord will allow the enemy to try some of us to the limit, just as the enemy tried Job to the limit, not because he had done anything wrong, but to show that his love for God wasn't based on his material wealth, his family, or his health, but on the simple fact that God was his creator and sustainer, and had shown him great kindness (Job 2:10). Job did not sin when faced with every trial a man can face. He remained loyal to God unto the end.

    I believe we are to look to the patient suffering of Job as our example: "Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy" (James 5:10-11). We Christians will need such patience in the coming tribulation: "Here is the patience and the faith of the saints" (Revelation 13:10). "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12-13).

    Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

    In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

    "God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

    Note that the Old Testament did distinguish between Jesus' two comings: the one in Isaiah 53 where he dies, and the one in Zechariah 14 where he comes to conquer and rule, but neither the Old Testament nor the New teaches a 3rd coming.

    Some say the Thessalonians were shaken about possibly missing the rapture and being in the tribulation. But the Thessalonians wouldn't be "shaken in mind, or be troubled" (2 Thessalonians 2:2) about being in persecutions and tribulation, for they were already patiently enduring both: "We ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure" (2 Thessalonians 1:4), but they would be shaken if the 2nd coming had supposedly already happened, because where was Jesus? And if the 2nd coming had already happened, then the resurrection must have already happened as well, and where were all their departed loved ones that Paul had promised them they would see again? (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18) Those who spiritualized away the resurrection in Paul's day were destroying the faith of some (2 Timothy 2:18).

    Note that the word "wrath" in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is the Greek word orge, which is used in the NT to refer to the entire range of the levels of God's wrath, from a single angry look by Jesus: "He had looked round about on them with anger (orge)" (Mark 3:5), to the eternal horror of the lake of fire: "The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation (orge); and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever" (Revelation 14:10-11). If we who have obtained salvation do wrong, I believe Jesus can still be angry with us, for "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten" (Revelation 3:19), but such chastisement doesn't mean we are appointed to the wrath of the lake of fire (Revelation 14:10), to which only those who will not obtain salvation are appointed (1 Thessalonians 5:9, John 3:36).

    I believe Jesus said the tribulation will be cut short because we the elect will still be here: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened" (Matthew 24:21-22).

    I believe we in the church are the elect:

    "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2).
     
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