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To tithe or not to tithe.

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by pawn raider, Aug 26, 2001.

  1. Raulf7

    Raulf7 New Member

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    There was a change of law

    Hebrews 8:13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

    Hebrews 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

    Tithing was made to the Priest, who is your Priest now?

    Your High Priest is not on earth so how can you legitimately get money to him? You can't

    Seeing there was a change of law, tell me how you decide what to include and what not to include?

    We dont have to keep the sabbath, sacrifice animals, keep kosher, use the death penalty for adulterers, witches and false prophets. These are not included in the NT. How is it that you decide that tithing is?
     
  2. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    You know one of the hardest things to do is admit when you're wrong, & I've been wrong & I have to thank my Lord for using this forum to show me. I see now why I was'nt blessed more by tithing, because it was with the wrong attitude. Necessity.
    The law has never been aboilshed, when the Word speaks of not being under law, its speaking more of the penalty than the wording. Study the law, its main purposes were to show men they were sinners, & that there are consiquences of that sin. It was also given as a benifit, spiritually, physically, & emotionaly. Wheather we realize it or not, if we're obediant to our Savior, we're keeping the law. He said he came not to destroy, but to fufill. He did'nt destroy "Love the Lord thy God", he fufilled it, & still does, through us.
    We say as christians that we don't kill, don't covet, don't steal, we love our neighbor, in these we're keeping the law.
    We may not offer blood sacrifices, but again that was fufilled, & yet we do offer sacrifices,... oue bodies.
    I again thank my Lord for his forgivness, & for using the people here on this site to
    open my eyes!! [​IMG]
     
  3. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Raulf7,

    Excellent points! ;)

    We should all look very long and hard at "as he may prosper." That does not mean give only out of our excess, but then it doesn't mean deprive your family of necessities as a result of your giving either.

    Here's the point. If a church's budget is prayerfully decided upon by the budget/finace committee, and approved by the regular members of the church, then the members should collectively be responsible to meet that goal. They shouldn't wait until the end of the year to ante up to meet the goal, but should check the bulletin or where ever it's posted and if the year-to-date offerings are below the budget, each member should give a little more next week (money for mission work may be included in the budget).

    Pastors, if your church budget was consistently being provided for, would you preach on tithing? Would you need to? I like what our pastor preached on: good stewardship, which included meeting the financial needs of the church, but also included giving our time and talents to the work of the church as well. Give according to the blessings God has given you. If God has blessed you with more money, give more than your share. If He has given you more skills and talent, give more of those than your share. If you have more free time (retired or no children/grown children), give more of yourself than your share.

    Don't look to a system the purpose of which was to support the priesthood and government of Israel including the synagogs, to add a Pharasitic law to today's church.

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
     
  4. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    Wells,
    You are missing the whole point. You seemingly assume that those who believe in tithing do so for financial gain. This is not the case. I believe in the principle of the tithe most importantly because of its Biblical basis, and the early church practiced tithing is also telling. Once again, equating the tithe with financial gain is much like saying those who oppose tithing are selfish and ungiving. There may be some of each in both camps. But you cannot paint everyone in both camps this way.
     
  5. John Wells

    John Wells New Member

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    Tom,

    I don't see my posts as pointing to "personal gain" at all. They point to a methodology to meet church budgets.

    I would be interested in scripture references that the early church tithed. Also, would you bother preaching on tithing/giving if your church year in and year out exceeded buget needs?

    Blessings Tom!

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
     
  6. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    This is typically always a fruitless conversation because of the presuppositions of both camps. If you make a hard and fast distinction between the testaments, and assume Marcion-like hermeneutical principles in the NT, one is predisposed to object to tithing. I want to address the whole notion of the tithe as a tax. If the tithe is a tax, then why does the OT distinguish between the two? For examples of taxation, see 1 Sam 17:25; 2 Kings 23:35; Ezra 4:13,20; Neh 5:4). These are examples of the taxation under monarchy. Prior to this, Israel had no government to fund as they were a theocracy. Theocracy is a spiritual system, not a governmental one.

    As for the terminology attached to the tithes paid in OT times, why is it that the same Biblical terms are used? The distinctions applied to the tithes are labels we use in commentary.

    The question is asked about "where is the priesthood today?" Are there not spiritual leaders today, just as in the OT? Are there not spiritual ministries today, such as ministry to the poor, just as there were in the OT (Lev 25:25-28, 35-43; Deut 15:7-11; 24:19-22. Cf. Acts 2:44-45; 4:32-36).

    The assertion is made that giving is always a private matter, not subject to amount. If that is true, why the harsh judgement on Annanias and Sapphira (Cf Acts 5:1-11)? Some argue it is because of a lie or simple disobedience. But context places this passage on the heels of Barnabas's example of giving. So context would seem to say that the judgement is based on their stewardship practices.

    Some have compared what is called the "Festival Tithe" to a gigantic fellowship meeting. Could this not have been extracted from the regular tithe? If this were a seperate tithe, this would mean an entire nation brought a tenth of their food (Essentially, their gross national product)to be eaten at one festival. If a city the size of Atlanta brought one tenth of its "GNP" to a festival, how long do you think it would take to consume it? :D

    The argument about NT silence on tithing brings up another good point. There is considerable silence relative to the charges and accusations against Jesus relative to tithing. Jesus was accused of many things by the Pharisees, including not practicing the Sabbath, violating purity regulations, and breaking the law of Moses. But where is the charge against Him for not tithing? One could make an argument that He must have tithed, or else He would have faced public condemnation from the Pharisees for this as well.

    Tithing is simply a response to the command of God. It is a basis for giving to the work of God in this world. It is no more legalistic than the commands to pray, witness, and be holy. As Reformed NT Scholar Thomas Schriener has written, <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Allegiance to picayune matters of the law does not necessarily constitute legalism... A passion for obedience to specific requirements is not necessarily legalistic. Some people view any call to obedience and righteousness as legalistic. The gospel writers do not criticize the religious leaders of Judaism for their concern with keeping the law in particular areas of everyday life. They rebuke them because relatively minor matters take on more significance than do the major issues, as well as the religious leaders’ adherence to laws that were traditional and not Scriptural (Cf. Matt 5; Mark 7:1-23)
    Thomas Schreiner, The Law and Its Fulfillment, Baker Book House, 1993, p.212
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It is not a means to obtain God's favor. It is not a means to primarily obtain God's blessing. It is a discipline of grace, much like witnessing, prayer, worship, etc. Tithing is a fundamental element of Biblical stewardship which flies in the face of a materialistic, selfish society.

    I am still looking for the article rebutting MacArthur's book, but so far I can't find it. I'm not sure what happened to it, but somehow I believe Gary Condit is involved :D

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: TomVols ]
     
  7. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wellsjs:
    Tom,

    I don't see my posts as pointing to "personal gain" at all. They point to a methodology to meet church budgets.

    I would be interested in scripture references that the early church tithed. Also, would you bother preaching on tithing/giving if your church year in and year out exceeded buget needs?

    Blessings Tom!

    [ August 28, 2001: Message edited by: wellsjs ]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    I don't believe tithing is preached as a means to meet church budgets. Some preachers might do that. Shame on them. If preached, it should be preached out of faithfulness to God's Word, not because they are preaching to a felt need. As far as church budgets go, if God's people tithed and gave obediently, we'd never have to worry about church budgets, except to worry about what to do with all the money! We'd have to worry about how are we going to support so much missions! How are we going to give away all this to those in need? That's a worry we'd all like to see :D
    While there are no NT references to any of the NT churches explicitly tithing, there are references in church history and the Didache of the early church tithing. See my earlier post.
    As for my preaching habits on tithing, I am not a topical preacher. I primarily preach through books of the Bible. But would I preach tithing if I came to a Scripture passage that dealt with it, even if our church budget was overflowing? Absolutely, out of obedience to 2 Tim 4:2. Just like I'd preach on witnessing even if we'd just baptised 40 new believers. It's not the contextual need, but biblical faithfulness that determines the preaching.
     
  8. Slain Arminian

    Slain Arminian New Member

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    What gets my goat is to hear certain preachers trying to get people to make covenants to tithe or to give a certain amount of money. Some of these same preachers contend that tithing is a commandment. Why then don't they ever ask people to make a covenenant not to steal or murder?
     
  9. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Administrator
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    Picking and choosing what to "laud" and what to "condemn" should be from a true exposition of the Word of God, not the whim of a preacher. Most pick topics in which THEY already meet the standard.

    Got a ton (pun intended) of overweight preachers, right? How many would select THAT topic as a "commandment" or make a "covenant" to put a knife to their throat?

    That is the pharisee in us all. We set up rules that WE keep but know others don't and then secretly judge them for it. Some times, just for fun, we don't even let the others know the rules; that way, when they break them, we can feel great and they are oblivious!

    Dr. Bob
    Recovering Pharisee
     
  10. Slain Arminian

    Slain Arminian New Member

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  11. TomVols

    TomVols New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slain Arminian:
    What gets my goat is to hear certain preachers trying to get people to make covenants to tithe or to give a certain amount of money. Some of these same preachers contend that tithing is a commandment. Why then don't they ever ask people to make a covenenant not to steal or murder?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Good question. You'd have to ask someone who does the whole pledging thing. Probably the same reason that some preachers don't preach at all on giving or election or the atonement. Martyn Lloyd Jones called these "hobby horse" preachers. Or a failure to be truly expository. Mark Dever says it best: "Unless pastors preach through expositionally through books of the Bible, we never preach more than we already know."
     
  12. Jeff Weaver

    Jeff Weaver New Member

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    Hi folks

    I found this to be a curious discussion.

    1st. I saw nothing wrong with MacArthur's comments.
    2nd. Tithing or giving doesn't have to be to the church. There are other ways to serve God than giving money to the church. For example, showing hospitality to strangers. Helping your siblings in Christ when some emergency comes up, or just helping those fellow human beings who are down and out.

    Lots of churches spend lots of money on unnecessary things. Someone in another thread mention a competition for which church could build the largest steeple. What a waste of both. I don't think the elegance of a church building impresses God. So why bother, a plain, simple, building is sufficient.

    I fear I will offend some, which isn't my desire, but churches which get legalistic about give a certain % to the church proper will lead to folks like Creflo Dollar and Kenneth Copeland. Giving can and should, IMO take various forms.

    If your neighbor has hospital bills -- take them some money,
    If they are hungry, take them some food.
    If their roof leaks, take a hammer, ladder and some shingles and fix it.

    That in my mind is a better way to spend money rather than to raise money for $40/yard carpet, when $15/yard carpet will do.

    Ending my rant now.

    Jeff
     
  13. rlvaughn

    rlvaughn Well-Known Member
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    I take the position that tithing is not a New Testament command for the church (and I am not a dispensationalist). Whether a person gives 10% is another matter (between him and God, as I see it). There are two New Testament references to tithing - Matt 23 & Heb 7. If a compulsory tithing law exists in the New Testament, some of Paul's commands concerning giving are nullified (such as "Every man as he purposeth in his own heart, so let him give...").

    But I personally think to argue about whether or not we should give 10% of our income misses the point. The New Testament doctrine that governs giving is not the tithe, but stewardship. 100% of all we possess belongs to God. If so, we are answerable to Him for what we do with all 100%. If we do give 10% to a church or Christian causes, etc. (or 7% or 12%), what are we doing the other some-odd 90%?? The worst error I have seen with the coming of tithe principle to my country is that many who adopted it believe that if they give 10% to the church, they "have done all they are required to do." They joyfully do so, thinking the remaining 90% is freed up for them to do with as they will. A serious concept of stewardship would make us consider all of our income and benefits and how they may properly be used in the service of God. Do I really need the $35,000 automobile or could I accomplish the same thing with the $15,000 one, and free up $20,000 for some other use in God's kingdom business (and I don't necessarily mean giving it all to the church; perhaps some of it might be spent on books for the religious education of our children, etc., etc.)? A serious concept of stewardship would not only affect the individual, but would also cause churches to rethink some of those things on which we spend our money!
     
  14. Raulf7

    Raulf7 New Member

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    Tithing was an OT tax system under the Jewish Theocracy, even non relgious Jews paid it. Thats why there was also a separate system for spiritual giving which had no % assigned to it.
     
  15. Aki

    Aki Member

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    The issue of tithing can actually be solved when we understand the Doctrine of Dispensations. God has imposed different protocols for different ages. Indeed, He has the ability to be the same eternally while changing certain things. The doctrine of tithing exists in the Bible, but is not commanded to the Church. Biblical study not only demands us to see whether the word tithe exists in the Bible, but it also requires us to understand whether it is written there for us to do. The issue actually falls in the concept of rightly dividing the Word of Truth. Tithing is not applicable in the Church as it was not commanded to the Church. If it is commanded, let us do it. But if it is not, let us not add to what God requires of us so as to feel and look obedient. What God requires of us is obedience to what He commands, and not any addition to His such commands.
     
  16. Dave Morrow

    Dave Morrow New Member

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    How would the WORD go out.
    Would those that say they love God an obey all the commandments go out and MATT 28, fullfill the great commission, and lead people to Christ. I know not!! To many leave it to the Pastor to do it when if they would relize we are all in the ministry and GOD Gives us everything so we could give some back. And incourage unbelievers and backsliden believers to have a personal relationship with Christ
    I truly believe if you chose not to tithe you will mis out on many blessings the Lord would love to pour out unto you.

    [ November 03, 2001: Message edited by: Dave Morrow ]
     
  17. Chet

    Chet New Member

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    Hi Dave Morrow.

    Are you then saying that God needs our ten percent before the Gospel could be spread? That He could operate better if we did so?

    And you say that God Gives us everything, which I agree with, but then you assert that God gives to us so that we must give it back. If so, then the gifts from God are not really gifts.

    And I don’t want to misunderstand you, but are backslidden Christians made right with God if they start figuring out what ten percent of their income is so they can give it to the local Church?

    Also, on you last point, do I need to pay God in order for Him to bless me?

    With love, Chet [​IMG]
     
  18. Chris Temple

    Chris Temple New Member

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    <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chet:
    Hi Dave Morrow.

    Are you then saying that God needs our ten percent before the Gospel could be spread? That He could operate better if we did so?

    And you say that God Gives us everything, which I agree with, but then you assert that God gives to us so that we must give it back. If so, then the gifts from God are not really gifts.

    And I don’t want to misunderstand you, but are backslidden Christians made right with God if they start figuring out what ten percent of their income is so they can give it to the local Church?

    Also, on you last point, do I need to pay God in order for Him to bless me?

    With love, Chet [​IMG]
    <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

    Chet:

    You're sounding more like a Calvinist everyday! :eek: ;)
     
  19. Rolcik

    Rolcik New Member

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    Somebody has to pay for the lights, the pastor, the water, the building. Give it a break, the money does not rain from the rafters after prayer people.

    If you attend a local church and do not give you are robbing everybody in that place of worship. Be practical. If you don't like giving, then start having church in your house.

    How can people think they should not have to support the church they participate and share in? That is ridiculous. Forget the spiritual damage you do yourselves, and just pay for what you have used. God does not need your money, but your local church does.

    People respect others and pay membership dues to whatever other clubs, schools they go to, but no, when God is involved people see an opportunity to keep their money to themselves.
     
  20. Rolcik

    Rolcik New Member

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    Dave Morrow:

    What? Are we now financing the Great Commision to SEND people out, or are we to live the Great Commision where we live???
     
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