to work or not to work?

DHK, I'll try one more time.

You said that if one ceases in works that result from faith then they had not really been saved.

If others who thought that they had been saved, just as you believe that you had been saved, ceased in works, how do you know that you will one day not cease in works?

They had the same Scriptural assurances that you have. They believed just as honestly as you do that they were saved.

How do you know that you will not one day cease in works?

Ron

 

I don't believe I ever will. But hypothetically speaking, if for some unforeseen reason that happens then that does not change the promises of the Bible.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." (Rom.8:1)

"He that hath the Son hath life; he that hath not the Son hath not life."

I have the Son of God living in my heart. He always will. There will never by any eternal condemnation given to me. My salvation is secure in Christ. He has given to me the gift of eternal life. Eternal means just that: eternal. If eternal would be taken away Christ would be a liar, for eternal life would then become temporary life.
DHK

 

Notice that DHK's have done a nifty end run around the Scriptures which I posted from John 5: 29 and Romans 2: 5 - 10. Perhaps he doesn't wish to respond because what these verses say is SO CLEAR that he simply either does not have a response, or does not want to find himself fighting against Scripture.

And this is not the first time either. I have noticed a pattern to the greater majority of his responses to Catholic theological reasoning. Ignore what you cannot argue with. Restate the Scriptures to fit your own suppositions. Do not refer to type/antetype fulfillments. Obsfucate the Greek meanings and texts. Do not agree with even Protestant Bible commentaries when they prove textual meanings to be Catholic in scope.

And most of all, insult, do not discuss.

Wheeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!! What a neat sandbox this is.

Brother Ed

 

Ed, I am not adverse at answering any of your questions from the Bible. Please, ask away. You may not always get the answer you want, but I will provide what I believe to be a Biblical answer.

John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
--There are plainly two resurrections: one two eternal life, and one to eternal damnation.

The two resurrections are separated by a thousand years:
Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
--Not everything in the Book of Revelation is allegorical. There is a thousand year reign. There will be a resurrection before that reign, and a resurrection after it. That is what Jesus was referring to.
The resurrection of the just is described in 1Cor.3:11-15.
The resurrection of the unjust is described in Revelation 20:11-15. I am glad, for one, that I will not be there.

Romans 2:5-10
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

In the first three chapters of Romans Paul is addressing the sin problem of mankind. In the first chapter he describes how the Gentiles are under sin. In the second chapter he shows how the Jews are under sin, and in the third he demonstrates that all, both Jews and Gentiles are under sin (Rom.3:23).
Speaking of the Jews in chapter two he speaks of the hardness of their heart and their unrepentance. The consequence of this is the wrath of God, which even now they are treasuring up (accumulating).
"Who will render to every man according to his deeds:" Verse six is a general principle, and it is clear that in this respect God would deal with the Jew as he does with the Gentile. It is the same type of general principle that Abraham established about God when he said "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Gen.18:25). Paul is addressing the unrepentant Jews who will just assuredly face the White Throne judgement without repentance, as will the unsaved Gentiles described in Romans chapter one.
But in verse seven he talks of the saved: "them who by patient continuance in well doing seek after glory and honour and immortality, eternal life." This is the fruit of those that have already believed in contrast to those who have not. It is the saved that patiently continue. It is the saved that receive the gift of eternal life. Scripture does not contradict itself, but rather is in harmony. The fruit of the righteous, described here is contrasted to the fruit of the unrighteous in verses 8 and 9. "Tribulation and anguish upon every soul of man that doeth evil." Those that do evil are evil. They are the unsaved that Paul has been speaking of. The consequence of their actions will be tribulation and anguish. They will appear before the Great White Throne Judgement. And justice will be meted out.
"But glory, honor and peace..." again this is the fruit of the saved.
Man is saved by faith, not by works. (Eph.2:8,9).
There are two resurrections: one for the just, and one for the unjust.
DHK

 

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

You said that if one ceases in works, one is not saved.

You believe that you will never cease in works but apparently you are not absolutely sure.

Eternal life is eternal, but how can you know you are saved or not if you don't know that you will never cease in works?

The hard truth of the matter is that you really won't know for sure that you are saved until you die.

Until then the possiblilty exists that you could cease in works and find out that you aren't really saved after all.

Ron

 

No, you're just misrepresenting our position by posting your view rather than ours. As already mentioned, you are looking at works as a part of faith instead of a result of faith and seem to think that if works cease, faith ceases. Regeneration is a result of genuine faith, and a lack of good works suggests that regeneration never happened which is why a person who's works cease was probably (that's probably not definately) never saved to begin with. If however a person who genuinely was regenerated ceases in works, they will not lose their salvation but they will have to look into the eyes of Christ that are like flames of fire and give an account of what they have done. The promises of God to the regenerated believer in Christ will never be broken, but a believer who lives by the Spirit but ceases to walk by the Spirit will one day suffer loss as he looks into Christ's eyes that are like a flame of fire and realizes that he did not put what God gave him to good use.

 

This is what DHK said previously.

He, not me, said that if works cease then either there was no faith to begin with or the faith ceases. Take it up with him.

Now you just said it too.

But how do you know if you are genuinely regenerated if you cease in works?

What is the loss if not a loss of salvation?

Actually, I am more interested in my original question.

How do you know that you will not cease in works?

Also, I previously asked you, and you did not answer, "If faith without works is dead, does a dead faith save?"

[ November 18, 2002, 10:45 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

You misrepresent our view again and you have ignored the context of DHK's post.

If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. - 1 Corinthians 3:15 NASB

The loss is obviously not a loss of salvation.

17 Therefore if anyone is (1) in Christ, he is (2) a new creature; (3) the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. - 2 Corinthians 5:17 NASB

Genuine faith brings new life in Christ, hence the faith of one who has been regenerated is living and results in a new and living creature in Christ. Faith is living because the result is life, so-called faith that never produces a change is dead because life does not result. Works ceasing does not kill the life that resulted because of faith.

If a person ceases in works they might very well not be certain that they were regenerated.

3 (7) By this we know that we have come to (8) know Him, if we (9) keep His commandments. - 1 John 2:3 NASB

It is by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit that believers are able to keep God's commandment, that change in the heart of the believer testifies to the genuine regeneration and so a lack of works could very well lead to a lack of assurance.

24 The one who (59) keeps His commandments (60) abides in Him, and He in him. (61) We know by this that (62) He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us. - 1 John 3:24 NASB

Again, it is the Spirit who regenerates and brings about a new creature in Christ and testifying that we are His.

 

My very point.

So how does one know that they will never cease in works. Obvioulsy they cannot know that.

Therefore there is no real assurance of salvation.

The best you can say is you are saved if you are saved but you won't know until the end.

Ron

[ November 18, 2002, 11:44 AM: Message edited by: trying2understand ]

 

1 John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."

Seems to tell me I can be assured of salvation.

 

Hello Brother Curtis --

Yes, it does SEEM that you have eternal life, but unfortunately, you are reading into the text and not considering the rest of Scripture.

Your position of "once saved - always saves" contradicts the rest of the Scriptures, especially those writings in which St. Paul warned believers against falling away from the faith. Therefore, we need to understand the reason why St. John was writing this epistle was to give assurance to those who were being given doubts about their status with God by the wolves of the "circumcision party."

The "circumcision party" was teaching that unless one was first circumcised, they could not possibly attain salvation. John's epistle assured them that they were indeed possessors of eternal life, having recieved the Holy Spirit at their baptism.

What John's epistle does not say is what you read into it -- that when one has eternal life, one keeps it forever. Eternal life is the state of being in UNION WITH CHRIST. As long as we do not break our covenant with God through Christ Jesus by entertaining mortal sin (which is covenant breaking), we may rest assured that all is indeed well with us and God.

We also must remember that while we have eternal life because we have the Spirit of God, in Whom indeed eternal life rests, He is called "the earnest" of our inheritance. He is not the FULL PORTION, but only the earnest of a greater and more full experience yet to come in the next life -- that of being eternally united to Christ and living forever with Him.

You see, eternal life is not a "thing". It is a person - Christ Jesus. And as long as we have His Spirit in us, we have a portion of that eternal life, which is called "the earnest". And one day, by His grace, we will have complete union with Him.

And THAT then will indeed be life eternal and neverending.

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

 

How about fitting this in with everthing else that has been offered by various parties in this thread.

How does your verse fit with "faith without works is dead"?

 

It's a comment to your post, Ron. You told me I can't have the Blessed Assurance of salvation. I give you a verse to answer your post, and you give me this response....

Brother Ed, yet again, the only advice you can give me is don't trust what my Bible says. The only thing I can ask is...

"...who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?" Galatians 3:1

 

Curtis, my post was one in a succession of posts on the topic at hand.

Faith without works is dead.
If the works cease, one may have not been saved.
How do you know your works won't cease?
You can't know that.
If you can't know that your works won't cease, how can you know that you were really saved?

Please, explain your "assurance" within the context of this thread.

Ron

 

My works will definately cease, at some point. Either I will tire, or die, or be taken.

But according to the Bible, salvation won't end. That's how I know, because the Bible says so.

I don't know what else to tell you. Within the context of the thread, faith is made evident thru works, but faith doesn't save. Jesus saves.

[ November 18, 2002, 02:30 PM: Message edited by: Bro. Curtis ]

 

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Ephesians 4:30

 

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." John 10:28 & 29