Todays boys are either barbarians or wimps?

PinoyBaptist, many people will not understand your post because Americans have been brought up to believe that physical discipline, apart from a small spanking, is wrong. A large number even believe that spanking itself is abuse too.

I've talked to people who grew up in other countries and what a difference!
I've heard people from China tell about having their hands tied in front of them while they got whipped for being disrespectful, or being made to do something physical such as sit-ups, push-ups, running.

Most other countries seem to use discipline most Americans would have their children taken away for. (Germany seems to be an exception from wht I've been told) It's almost amusing to see how appalled Americans can get over other punishments used in other countries, but on the other hand there doesn't appear to be a ton of ADHD children in China that need to be drugged in order to sit still for five minutes. HMMMM

I watched a tape made by a retired police detective here in the U.S. He talked about the lack of physical punishent and the need for it. One example he gave was this basic storyline: two police officers arrested a man for stealing tires and such. He kept cringing, afraid the officers would hit him. They finally got the story out of him. He had committed the same crime in another town and had been beaten for it.
Guess what? He didn't steal in that town anymore. He was afraid to. He went and committed his crimes where he figured the punishment would be tolerable.

Now if time outs or talking doesn't work they're labelled ADHD and drugged up. If I see one more child drugged up because of this very often false diagnosis I'm going to scream! THAT is child abuse. I see parents raising undisciplined children, sitting them in front of violent movies from the time they're infants, spending no time with them, then taking them to a psychologist when they're old enough to cause problems and getting them labelled this, then drugging the kid. It's sick and insane.
The newest trend seems to be to label them bi-polar along with it. I believe the bi-polar diagnosis, but believe it's caused by pumping them full of ADHD drugs that CAUSE mental problems. But then when they suffer those problems they're labelled bi-polar on top of it and given even stronger medication.

Sounds like child abuse to me!

Gina

 

By 14 you should have raised a young man who doesn't need to be fist whipped to obey!

I never said we don't spank. However, if you lived near me and I knew for a fact you used your fists on your son, I'd turn you in.

So instead of huffing and puffing, beating their chests a parent should beat their child? All you'll accomplish is that you'll create a child that will either beat his own children or a child, like me, who abhors physical violence because of their upbringing!

There is NO scripture that tells us to use our fists on our children!

 

AGREE!

 

Goodness gracious, how we Christians like to jump at each other's throat just so we can show how holier we are than another ! Why so ? Is it because I was once reproved for pointing out that some Bibles use cuss words and putting those words in print that it's been decided nothing good can possibly be found in anything I say ?


Did I say Christians ought to do that ? Read my post, lady ! I was talking about a people !! That's how it's done in other countries, including mine ! I was made to kneel on mongoes for one hour in school ! And my father strung me up once up our ceiling because I got into a fistfight with some guys in high school ! Did I hate him for that ? NO! I understood what I did was wrong, and took responsibility ! And that's what that article was pointing out. Kids today are so softly treated they do not know what being responsible for something is.

Another thing I'm saying is huffing and puffing and beating one's chest, which is figurative for putting on a stern face and holding a belt or a whip, and then finally not using it is worse than ignoring the sin and refusing to discipline ! You hold the belt, use it ! Otherwise, don't ! Because if you don't, after threatening to, then you 'provoke your children to wrath' or to contempt.

And you're wrong, at 14 there are times when one has to fistwhip a child to obey, which means you probably got a problem in your hands, where the discipline takes a while to sink in. But, unless a young man is criminally inclined like some are, it will sink in.

 

ADHD is not a myth, some people really struggle with this disorder. The problem is that way too many doctors are calling good ole' misbehavior ADHD. Rather then going through the difficulty of actually beng a good parent, some choose to try and drug their way to healthy children. It doesn't work and they wander why. What are the actual numbers of those that really struggle from ADHD, I don't know, but it is no where near the unbelievable numbers we see reported today. BTW this comes from 10+ years in youth ministry and 2 years in a clinical setting with at risk youth.

 

You ought to be gald they weren't raised in this country because you wouild probably be in jail. My brother in law is a police officer and I hear about people just like you. When I was pastoring I heard about tyrants just like you from their spouses and children. I grew up in a home with one as a dad.

If you hadn't gotten them straightened out by the age of five you had already lost the battle.

My dad was a man with a hot temper. He had a way of always beating on us including my mom. One day when I was 17 he tried it on me. Shortly before this time I was getting to the point where I was preparing in my mind to give him a piece of what I thought. That point arrived. When he started to grab me I grabbed him and threw him on the floor. I put my arm around his throat and choked him. I did it long enough that I did not let him go until I knew he had given up. He was humiliated and he never touched me again. Later I told him that if he ever touched my mom he would have wished he never had.

Part of the issue with teenagers is that they want to be just like their friends. They want their own identity not tied to their parents. But they are still minors. So what I do to take away the urge to be diferent is to tell my daughter that I wil get her those things if she realy wants. she doesn't like the way most teenagers dress.

Just a few days ago my daughter asked me what wine tastes like. We were talking and I told her that I would get her some if she liked. At that point she told me "No." She remembered the time we went to a brunch where they served champagne. At that time she asked what it tasted like. So we asked the waiter to pour us a very small amount. It was for her. She tasted it and said, "Yuk." She then asked about how could anybody like that stuff. My parents were grape farmers and I remember tasting wine the first time. I said the same thing. To this day I still don't see why people like it. I have never been drunk and we had wine in the refrigerator all the time. My parents hardly ever drank it either.

It is not the external that so much shapes children but the model they see each day in their home.

Sometime you need to see the man who is a horse trainer who trains them by love and speaking to them by winning their confidence. That horse is trained in much less time and is trained better.

You can whip a child and get them to do what you want but when they leave you they will do as they want. I want them to make mistakes while they are at home so I can use that as a teachable moment, not later in rebellion to me.

Take a look at Deut. 6 that is the answer.

 

You are absolutely right. How many adults do you see labelled as hyperactive or with ADHD.

Children will do what we expect. If we expect nothing we get that in return. We must be firm and loving at the same time. Children wil behave differently for adults that expect proper behavior.

Every parents ought to read the book, "The Essential 55: An Award-Winning Educator's Rules for Discovering the Successful Student in Every Child"
by Ron Clark

He was the teacher of the year a few years ago.

I have fond is that the apple does not fall far from the tree. When I was teaching high school I quickly found out in almost every case that if I had a problem with a student I had an even worse problem with the parents.

 

go2church, I do not mean to imply that ADHD is not something that some kids have, I'd just guesstimate that 9 out of 10 kids being diagnosed with it anymore really aren't.

gb93, I was raised in a pretty violent home, but there still is a difference between discipline and sin. One time when my father punched me I reacted in the same way as you and went after him, only once we had struggled enough that I was near the door I opened it and ran. Fast!

If I was being hit for things that required discipline it would have been different. If one is caught being a thief then a whipping is not going to provoke them to an ungodly wrath and if it does that's their sin, not the punishers. If dad came home drunk and decided you look funny and whips you that's just wrong.

Growing up with abuse I am definitely not one to be big on advocating gratuitous physical discipline. I am blessed to have 3 girls that are very well behaved and rarely need spanked, and one who never needs it. On the other hand I see a lot of children that require it or the lesson just doesn't sink in. Children who hit their parents, harm other kids, cuss at teachers, and they are given a time out and go right back to doing it. Teens who steal their parents car and wreck it and are taken to a counselor to talk about how they feel instead of being taken out back. I can't look at those children and their parents and say they should discipline the way I do because obviously it ain't worked for them so far!
It is hard for someone not raised in a certain culture to understand the differences, but it doesn't always make those differences wrong. Sometimes yes, but some things while shocking are really just different. For example, I recall watching a Vietnamese woman on a show visit her family in Vietnam after growing up in the U.S. She was asked by the family to consider setting up a monthly allowance for the mother. The woman flipped out crying and offended and hurt, wanted to go home, and decided to never speak to them again. For so many Americans it's offensive to be asked for money. Over there it's the job of the kids with more money to help out the rest of the family. If a child here was bullied into doing so the family would be in jail for harassment, fraud, what have you. Over there it's normal.
Does that make it wrong?
I can't say that it's biblically wrong to discipline a child in the way it is done in one's country. There are still biblical guidelines and basic common sense that has to be followed, but you do have to take into consideration that not everything the U.S. government has labled as wrong or that American culture has labeled as wrong is necessarily so.
On a lighter note, putting babies in cages in rooms apart from the parents like we do in America (baby in crib in own room, lol) is seen as child abuse in some countries where babies grow up sleeping with mom their whole childhood. (while a 9 or 10 yr old sleeping with parents raises eyebrows pretty high in the U.S.)
Just some thoughts.
Gina

 

Gina;

I agree with you that there is a difference between sin and discipline.

Having taught four years of high school before my daughter was born helped me a lot to see what worked and what didn’t. I think many parents need to loosen up and others need to tighten up. It seems that few are in the middle.

Discipline is one thing, anger is another. I don’t care for parents who nag their children or just let them do anything they please for fear of curbing their egotism either.

My daughter is a straight "A" student and has won many awards. Yes there are times when I confront her. I have told her that she is welcome to disagree with anything we say or do. But it must be done with respect for the other person. There have been times in the past when I have added the board of education which we called the “Helper Stick." Today she is a tough competitor but is respectful of others. The “Helper Stick” is long gone. She is now 14 and makes me proud as her dad. She has good friends and loves school. Not too long ago she wrote a paper and in it expressed disagreement with what was presented in the class on the creation of the earth. Just recently she debated the issue of abortion in class. What a pleasure it is to help her to be honest, tough and yet respectful. Just recently we were invited to meet with someone who was a higher up at a university. He showed us around the campus where he taught and we had lunch with him. Before we went we discussed with our daughter about how to conduct herself with older adults. Afterward we praised her for how well she did. We look for teachable moments. I must care enough to let her know how much I care.

I think it is imperative that we teach our children not just about God but to show that we know God. Our children will see us do stupid things and make poor choices but they must see us as humble. When we wrong them, we must ask forgiveness. Just a few days ago my daughter woke up with a bad attitude and she made us feel rather bad. When she came home we asked her how her day was and in that discussion she apologized for her bad attitude that morning. It makes me feel great just to think that a 14 year old would apologize for a bad attitude.

Do I have a perfect home? No. But I do know Christ has made all the difference in my family. I am different because of Christ. My wife did not grow up in a Christian home either. We know the difference Christ makes.

 

There's often an implication that a man isn't a man if he's not strereotypically mansculine. Any hint of non-masculinity brands you a "wimp". Ridiculous! That's nothing more than the same covered-up misogynism we've been spoon-feeding men for years.

God forbid a man do chores around the house, know how to shop, or change a diaper!

 

I was in Finland working for a short time. How I saw parents discipline their childreen was much different than in the US. I learned a lot. I saw the parents instruct their children much more than we typically do in the US.

The crime in that country is so low. Unemployment was about one half of one percent. I was never afraid about going into a bad part of town at night or being robbed. The laws they had were tough and they enforced them.

Spanking can be very effective if done for willful disobedience. But if done just because the parent is drunk or angry is wrong. We need to know where we are leading our children. We need to think about what we are trying to teach then and how we are to train them. It is a task God has given to us.

Ministry is not just a thing the parents should do. Most often we do it as a family. When we visit a family most often my daughter goes unless it would be inappropriate. Sometimes she sees cans of beer and cigarette butts. She sees how other people live. We don't want to protect her from how the world lives. We want her to see the results of how others live.

When my daughter was a lot younger we would go visiting and on the way she would ask if we could stop by and see a friend of her’s from school. We took advantage of those opportunities to get to know people we didn’t already know. We also wanted to let her know that her friends were important to us.

Personally I think to many Christian parents do their children a disservice by protecting their children too much. we are too concerned about what they might see that we don’t teach them how ministry is done. We are their example not the church or Bible school or seminary. That is the task God has given the parents in Deut. 6.

 

Again, an example of something attributed to one's "manliness". Cowardice neither robs one of manhood, nor does it make for manhood. It does, however, contribute to one's spiritual strength or weakness, which is different than male/female traits.

 

Very wise words gb, thanks!
Gina

 

Very wise words gb, thanks!
Gina

 

I never said otherwise. I was referring to the attempt to prescribe cowardice to lack of masculinity.

These are traits for Godly people in general, not men alone. I don't want a woman who lacks thee traits either.

Hmmm... and you accuse me of stereotyping. That's the pot calling the kettle black.