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Torture and Piracy

Discussion in 'Political Debate & Discussion' started by carpro, Apr 23, 2009.

  1. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member

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    Why it is ok to cap 3 teenage Somali pirates in order to save one merchant marine captain, but it's not ok to waterboard a known terrorist in order to save thousands of American lives?
     
  2. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    Simple! The teenage pirates were FINALLY ordered killed by an "uber" leftist democrat , and I hate to say it, president. Waterboarding, that actually saved thousands of lives, was ordered by a Republican President.
     
  3. windcatcher

    windcatcher New Member

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    Actually, mummmm is the word: The word has it that the military were not free to exact their action without restraint. The captain managed to free himself from his captors and jumped into the ocean at one point..... and the military could have taken the pirates out but were restrained by the CIC's direction to use whatever means available to negotiate a favorable outcome without the use of lethal force; only if the captain's life appeared to be in imminent danger. Apparently his jumping into the water and the pirates shooting bullets all around him did not constitute 'imminent danger' nor opportunity to bring a rapid closure to his ordeal..... so he passed for days with the pirates in a standoff.... and we think or thank President Cipher for the good job he did: applauding this as the first real test of his response under pressure!
     
  4. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    You are correct. The Captain of the Bainbridge, which could have blown the lifeboat out of the water when the captain jumped, was restrained by the stupid rules of engagement.
     
  5. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    The difference is the terrorist is already subdued, while the pirates are not. The pirates are in the middle of a criminal act and force (up to deadly force) is justified to end the situation.

    The terrorist is already in custody and is not an immediate threat to anyone. Torturing someone with the possibility to extract information is not OK. If you want to deprive the terrorist of sleep, stage mock executions, utilize sensory deprivation, etc that's fine.
     
  6. JustChristian

    JustChristian New Member

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    Who says torturing the terrorist saved "thousands of lives?" The pirates were obviously engaged in kidnapping and holding for ransom the ship's captain. Don't you consider that to be illegal?
     
  7. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member

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    I don't know your situation, of course, but let's assume you live in the country, in a rather isolated area, and you and your young child are the only ones in the house. It's the depth of night and you are startled awake and find 2 men have broken in and are pillaging. You get your loaded pistol and try to get to the child's room. The child is also awakened and you now hear her moving around. So you shout to her to stay put. This obviously warns the burglars. Other than let them look for you, and maybe find the child, you approach the room where they are, and first one you see hits the floor because he is unarmed. But then the child enters that room from another door, and the other burglar, who is armed, grabs her. Obviously you're afraid to fire while he holds the child in front, and he backs his way out of the house and manages to get her into a car with him and takes off. You would call the law, but would expect it to be at least a few minutes before any help arrives, knowing he could greatly harm or kill the child in a very small time increment. If you think there is a possiblity that thief on the floor would know where his comrade is taking her, would you point the gun at his foot and demand to know-- or perhaps order him face-down and stand on his neck until he answered-- as that would be torture? (and when any law enforcement arrives, you know they would not do it)

    Frankly, in such a situation, I would rather burn his face with a fire starter to get an answer than just say "aw-- torture ain't okay."
     
  8. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    The terrorist were not tortured.
     
  9. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I agree with you. The question isn't about what I would personally do however. Personally I'd torture, maim, rip to shreds, chew up, and spit out the thug until I got the information I wanted or he was dead. I'd also be dead wrong from a Christian perspective.
     
  10. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    So self defense is un-Christian in your opinion?
     
  11. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    No, I never said that. Where was the question of self defense asked?
     
  12. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    In the example given, waterboarding was used against the terrorist. Waterboarding is torture, so therefore the terrorist was tortured.

    Have you ever been waterboarded OldRegular? I certainly haven't. Since I haven't, I have to take the word of someone who has been tortured. John McCain (you know that guy that ran for President and was tortured) has said that waterboarding is torture. I'll take the word of a guy that's actually been tortured over an "OldRegular" any day.
     
  13. Ed Edwards

    Ed Edwards <img src=/Ed.gif>

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    Reminds me of a joke:

    Four people are in a room, a $50 is dropped into a room. Which of the following catch the $50 bill?

    The Easter Bunny
    Santa Claus
    The Great Pumpkin
    A blind man

    Answer: the blind man, the other three are fictional characters.

    The answer to your question is:
    1. "Why it is ok to cap 3 teenage Somali pirates in order to save one merchant marine captain ... ?"

    --this actually happened

    2. but " ... it's not ok to waterboard a known terrorist in order to save thousands of American lives"?

    -- this is never known to have happened - it is a fiction

    Again: the collection of Intel Information by torture is an inefficient use of government resources. Managers who let their people use torture to collect Intel should be replaced by people who are more efficient. Also: torture is not nice -- torture should not be, cannot be used, by any REAL member of any of the book religions: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. The main source of torture is the atheist/agnostic states/religions.
     
  14. LadyEagle

    LadyEagle <b>Moderator</b> <img src =/israel.gif>

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    Steve Herrigan on Fox News volunteered to undergo waterboarding before the camera. He said it was remarkable how quickly you recovered and were back to feeling normal within just a few minutes. There's video of it out there if you really care to watch and hear the other side.

    Anyway, this whole discussion about whether or not waterboarding is torture (I do not believe it is), will be moot pretty soon. With a demoralized intelligence community, we will be hit again, big time, and when it happens, don't go around asking yourself or starting threads bashing our intelligence community or wondering why they didn't do their jobs, why they didn't know about it or what could have been done to prevent it. That is, if you survive the next hit.
     
  15. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member

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    Wrong.

    You offer him tea and crumpets to tell you what you need to know.

    If he still refuses, you thank him for his time and bring him dinner and a TV to watch.

    You just flunked the ticking time bomb scenario. Almost everyone that is honest flunks it. Would it matter to God that the person in the most danger was your daughter?
     
  16. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    What are you babbling about?
     
  17. carpro

    carpro Well-Known Member

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    McCain was never waterboarded. He's hardly an authority.
     
  18. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    I could produce someone that has been waterboarded who says it is torture and you would still come up with some excuse for why they aren't an authority.

    What makes you an authority on the subject carpro?
     
  19. historyb

    historyb New Member

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    I just watched Steve Harrigan waterboarded, it looks likes like torture to me. I seen a version of it on mythbusters and it seemed like torture there too. I say just give someone salty crackers and don't give them any water, that should break em or to notch it up and let telemarketers call them all the time :D:laugh:
     
  20. OldRegular

    OldRegular Well-Known Member

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    I have great respect for John McCain because of his service to our country. Obviously I voted for him. However, I disagree with him, and my own Senator Graham, on this issue as well as his stand on immigration.

    You are entitled to your opinion but you are also entitled to be wrong just like McCain.
     
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